221952 Bullies, 4135 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 101 to 110 of 175
Page 11 of 18 FirstFirst ... 7891011 12131415 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 6:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=tellner]
    Quote Originally Posted by JP
    Stevan Plinck.

    Oy. Cimande is one of the best known systems of Silat. It may well be one of the oldest styles still being practiced, and it's had a profound effect on the Indonesian martial arts in general. Cikalong, like Cimande, is a West Javanese style of Silat. But the differences between the two are profound and require someone with much more skill in those styles. One of the things that characterizes Cimande is the insane degree to which practitioners harden their shins and forearms. I've seen before and after X-rays. The "after" ulna and radius were thicker and more radiolucent. A typical very basic Cimande techique is to hit the other guy's forearm - not elbow or wrist but foream - with your own hard enough to break it.
    -That all sounds really good. The years I spent doing other traditional arts have exposed me to body hardening stuff. I like it. I've actually seen a little of the body hardening stuff on either a quicktime file or a youtube clip floating around out there in the ether.

    -I'm actually familiar with Steven Plinck. I've never trained with him, or any of his students or affiliates, but I've done a lot of research using the internet on Indonesian arts before I ended up at the New York branch of Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen. But I didn't find very much of what I had come to recognize as traditional silat. I stuck around because of the family aspect, which it turns out, I craved more than an actual fighting art. Go figure. It ended up being a blessing in disguise.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    The little bit of Cikalong I've been privileged to see is long range, more evasive and not all that similar.
    -sounds interesting. I've heard that it means "bat" like the flying creature? Barbara's Cicalong was all sideways with a very narrow stance while up on the balls of your feet, a lot of crossing footwork and fists held with the middle knuckles extended as the striking surface. It was also where she taught the majority of her snake style from. From what I've learned since about actually fighting, that stance is gonna get you dropped. Live and learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Both styles use a number of different stances and are skilled at fighting someone who is in front, off to the side or behind you.
    -I'd be interested in playing with somebody who had these skills. Since leaving that place I'm not interested in training with anybody who isn't willing to beat my ass. Either the guy in charge or one of his students. No because I think I'm some kind of hard-on, but thats the only litmus test that I've found to work. Will they spar hard with contact? Can they **** me up when we do? If both questions answer yes, then I'm down to train. I don't take things on faith anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Definitely. She was willing to get in the ring and take her lumps in an era when women wished they could be second class citizens in the martial arts world. Before she started guzzling the Kool Aid she ran a good workout and was open to trying new teaching methods. Nobody can take that away from her. She was interested in the Southeast Asian martial arts before it was cool.
    -I believe she originally trained with Remy Presas and even holds some kind of 3rd degree rank from him which she had to give up to train with Barbara. Not like this really strips her of knowledge but I don't think she did nearly as much escrima anymore after meeting Barbara Niggel. A shame, because I understand that she came from Presas' school when it was still kinda hard knocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    You're welcome. Deal with martial artists for too long and terms like that just beg for air time.
    -I've got almost 20 years in. I started young. Unfortunately, it took me a long time to get to where I am now. I had some things to learn for myself I guess. A shame but you get where you can when you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    No problem. Let's just say that "mysticism" and "mystics" are terms that are as badly abused as "martial arts" and "self defense". The good stuff is hard to find and remarkably free of boogity boogity. It's also not for everyone. In fact, you're coming from where a lot of them start out. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". "Free your mind, the rest will follow". Or g-ds help us "We place no reliance in Virgin or pigeon. Our method is Science. Our aim is Religion." Books like "Do You Need a Guru?" (the answer is "probably not") and "Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment".
    -truth be told I love stuff like that, which is partially why I got so sucked in. I think the wonder and mystery of life should be preserved as this adds things to it. Experiencing the extraordinary can be beautiful. But too often its exploited by evil people with control and dominance on their minds. Give the choice, I'd avoid both, but now, having seen both I think I can be comfortable around it again. I know now that getting sucked in that deep for a second time isn't going to happen.

    Any time the word "need" is interjected I get worried. In any second. Needs are too easily exploited as leverage for control. I particulary like the quote attributed to Buddha, which goes something to the effect of "Do not believe anything you are told, even if I am the one saying it, if it does not conform with your own view of what is right and good."

    I can like any spiritual teaching that doesn't require blind obeisance or fear as a method of life.

    Barbara dealt heavily in fear. "Do that again and I'll never teach you." Was a popular refrain of hers. I've seen her move into people's lives, my own included, and take over. Injecting her values and removing anothers.

    On a completely different topic in the subject of mysticism, have you ever read the book "The Angle Quickest for Flight?"

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Of course. Exactly. Yep. What do you think all this talk about liberation and enlightenment is about? Be aware all the time. Take reality on its own terms. Try to see and think as clearly as possible. Recognize that the world you usually inhabit is mostly between your ears. Try not to freak out when Reality intrudes on your comfortable patterns of thinking.
    This is a tenant I can definetely get behind. And yes, 99% of truth is perception and concepts like good and evil are little more than majority opinions. The trick becomes being strong enough in your own opinions and having the willpower and self-mastery to hold to your ideals and trust yourself even in the face of overwhelming opposition and aggression. Personal truth and trust in self have become my grail since leaving that place. Its easy enough to see why.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    It's simple, but it's not easy. There are a lot of ways you can screw up along the way to thinking clearly, taking responsibility and not being full of yourself. That's why there are technologies and teaching methods to help people do those things. Every culture comes up with its own ways of teaching the lessons. It's a matter of finding what works for you.
    Truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    It's also very dangerous to authority and overlords. That's why Kabbalah is kept away from the masses, why the Catholics stick their mystics in monasteries, and why it's punishable by death to be a Sufi in any country governed by Sharia. Tell people that they are responsible for themselves and that they don't need a priest to stand between them and Reality. The next thing you know they'll stop doing what they're told and giving you money!

    Again truth. Its hard to lead a people that have strength in personal truth and opinion. They spend too much time arguing with authority. Trust in the overall regime has gotten humanity into more trouble than anything else I can think of. Its not the evil of one man its the lack of self-awareness that leads people to latch onto the will of another an follow a leader. Hitler, slavery, ruwanda, the khmer rouge and the bush administration jump most readily to mind.

    Tellner, been really good conversing with you. Thanks for weighing in on this thread.
    Last edited by JP; 12/23/2007 6:33pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  2. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 8:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Here's another gem.

    The link to the site below was developed as a marketing tool by the main branch of the school in Portland. Aside from the crunchy granola feel to the whole thing, the one thats always disturbed me most is the indian girl's photo at the bottom with the words "I teach adults how to defend themselves."

    The concept that children were qualified to teach adults, particularly in something like fighting was always rough for me. I've got a fair amount of experience and I'm not even sure I can teach somebody to defend themselves.

    http://www.followthedragon.net/
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  3. tellner is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    151

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 3:17am


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're right about Kalong meaning "bat", specifically "fruit bat".

    The style doesn't get its name because its blind practitioners fly and sleep hanging from their toes :icon_pira There are some very famous bat caves nearby. The Cikalong I've seen used the open hand a lot for striking, parryihng and what you could call loose stand-up grappling. They were light and evasive on their feet, but they didn't hop around on the balls of their feet all the time. Of course, I've had very little exposure to the system and could be wrong.

    Janessa did a lot of Karate/Kickboxing before starting Arnis. She was Remy Presas' fair haired girl for a while. Of course he ran through a lot of proteges about that time.

    Hard training and being willing to get knocked around? Well...
    <sermon>
    There's a time and place for really hard training, and there are others where it's counterproductive. You have to know you can take a punch, and you have to know what it's like to go past your regular limits. But it has to be done in moderation.

    My first Silat teacher - Brandt Thomas "Blunt Trauma" Bollers - likes to say "Your ass is a finite resource. The older you get the more finite it gets Train too hard and you hurt yourself in ways that don't show up for a while. He should know. I won't bore you with the details, but he's been, done and has bloodstains on the t-shirt.

    It can be bad for beginners. I've seen a lot of people who could have been good or who really needed the skills ruined by teachers who just plain liked to pound on them. They got gun shy. They didn't work up to it. All they learned was "The guy with the funny looking pajamas can hurt me. I don't need to pay $50 a month for someone to hurt me. I can get that from thugs and abusive boyfriends." Sure, the ones who are really tough or really dumb will stick it out. But they're the ones who don't need it quite as much. You can select out the ones who are already strong and tough. You can take people who aren't and make them stronger and tougher. I happen to lean towards the second kind of teaching for personal reasons.

    There has to be a sort of three-legged race between intensity, knowledge and skill. You can't work on them all at once. And you can't let one get too far ahead of the others.

    What I'm saying is that there has to be a balance. You don't have to elbow someone in the head or get Thai kicked on the inside of your thigh too many times to figure out that it works. You don't have to get beat up all that much to figure out that pain hurts but can be overcome. And if you take too many hard shots you'll get damaged. When I was in the JKDC family there was a guy in class who was a hot kickboxing prospect. He was getting a lot of fights and getting flown as far away as South Africa for bouts. Great athlete. Great future. He was also really enthusiastic about getting the crap kicked out of himself in hard hard practice.

    That was his undoing. He started having trouble with his balance and finally went to a doctor. It turns out he had gotten his bell rung one too many times and had damaged his cerebellum. You don't get better from that. Brain damage is cumulative. Last I heard he was driving a garbage truck for a living.

    </sermon>

    Along the lines of the sermon, there's a couple of new people in class. They've been friends for a long time. She's about five foot nothing and has a black belt in TKD. She's recovering nicely :) He's six four, strong, runs five miles a day and had fifteen or twenty years of Silat in the Netherlands with some pretty formidable people including a guy who escaped a Japanese concentration camp and became a partisan. That's not counting what he learned from his foster Indonesian family.

    And he's Dutch which means he has no tolerance for bullshit and doesn't believe anything unless you can prove it.

    When he first showed up he needed some proof. I took a few lumps and dished a few out. So did a couple of the other longer-time students. Eventually he decided we weren't complete fuckups. He didn't have to prove anything. Neither did we. It's all good now. But when we get into the one-against-many sparring I'm going to wear the Red Man suit. There's no sense losing brain cells that I have earmarked for drunken debauchery.
  4. Lord Of Chaos is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    155

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 5:51am


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tellner-

    i agree with you for the most part. but where i think a lot of silat fails is playing the "too deadly to spar" card. in my group we wanted to pressure test EVERYTHING we had to see what worked and what didn't. we finally came to the conclusion that basically anything and everything worked if your opponent was unaware of what you were doing. the more fancy and esoteric techniques did indeed work, but they required a LOT of practice. we concluded that working the fighting basics (boxing, kicking, basic wrestling) often were crucial to our training as real fighters.

    so yeah, the hard sparring doesn't HAVE to happen all the time, but it needs to be done at least 75% of the time. we used to do "one step" sparring, which was go in, start fighting, and once a complete technique was pulled off, stop and have the class critique the fight. that was actually quite helpful. it sucked that many times the fight was stopped right when you were in reptilian brain "kill or be killed" mode, but it was helpful to see how, when and where our fancy techniques were applicable.

    i guess the bottom line is this- i like my training to be extreme and violent, but i also like it to be that way under controlled conditions where that extremity is ultimately an education. there are many and varied teaching methods and they all have SOME merit to some degree.

    in the end, like jp i'm in this to be a FIGHTER, not a philosopher or religious mystic/ preacher. we all have our own goals. but i can tell you that i appreciate both your's and jp's attitude to this particular art. it sounds like you guys got into it for the same reasons i did. i've been on training hiatus for awhile, but after posting in this thread i think i'm going to get back into the game. i really miss training silat. it can mean 100 different things to 100 different people, but you have to give it credit for it's intensity, no matter what background you're coming from.
    Last edited by Lord Of Chaos; 12/24/2007 5:54am at .
  5. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 2:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    You're right about Kalong meaning "bat", specifically "fruit bat".
    Ah, so I wasn't lied to completely.....though perhaps I learned that elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    The style doesn't get its name because its blind practitioners fly and sleep hanging from their toes :icon_pira There are some very famous bat caves nearby. The Cikalong I've seen used the open hand a lot for striking, parryihng and what you could call loose stand-up grappling. They were light and evasive on their feet, but they didn't hop around on the balls of their feet all the time. Of course, I've had very little exposure to the system and could be wrong.
    That made me laugh. Considering barbara tried to teach us to levitate not a damn thing would surprise me at this juncture. Never saw her teach open handed striking from this position.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Janessa did a lot of Karate/Kickboxing before starting Arnis. She was Remy Presas' fair haired girl for a while. Of course he ran through a lot of proteges about that time.
    "Fair Haired girl?" Is that like the token whatever? I don't know if protege is the word I would use. But you appear to know more aabout this period of her life than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Hard training and being willing to get knocked around? Well...
    <sermon>
    There's a time and place for really hard training, and there are others where it's counterproductive. You have to know you can take a punch, and you have to know what it's like to go past your regular limits. But it has to be done in moderation.
    Of course. There's a place for drilling, but first I've gotta know the guy I'm training with at least has the thing. I'm not saying go balls out all the time. But there has to be some of that. I have to know that I'm being tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    My first Silat teacher - Brandt Thomas "Blunt Trauma" Bollers - likes to say "Your ass is a finite resource. The older you get the more finite it gets Train too hard and you hurt yourself in ways that don't show up for a while. He should know. I won't bore you with the details, but he's been, done and has bloodstains on the t-shirt.
    Cute nickname. Would make a good belt buckle. I agree with the quote you've attributed to him. But on the other hand, knives don't sharp sitting in the drawer all the time too. I would counter with "As iron sharpeneth iron, so does one man sharpen another."

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    It can be bad for beginners. I've seen a lot of people who could have been good or who really needed the skills ruined by teachers who just plain liked to pound on them. They got gun shy. They didn't work up to it. All they learned was "The guy with the funny looking pajamas can hurt me. I don't need to pay $50 a month for someone to hurt me. I can get that from thugs and abusive boyfriends." Sure, the ones who are really tough or really dumb will stick it out. But they're the ones who don't need it quite as much. You can select out the ones who are already strong and tough. You can take people who aren't and make them stronger and tougher. I happen to lean towards the second kind of teaching for personal reasons.
    I'm not a beginner anymore. I'm not that good, but I'm good enough where an ass-whipping is something I learn from. We're not talking about a beginner or somebody who a beating is going to scare off. I've had beatings aplenty. Not scared of pain. I agree that you can make a timid person stronger, but I'm not sure you can teach that instinct to keep going through pain and fear to anybody. There's gotta be some bedrock there. The natural responses are different from person to person. One crumples when he gets hits or stops, the other just gets pissed and wants to tear somebody's head off.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    There has to be a sort of three-legged race between intensity, knowledge and skill. You can't work on them all at once. And you can't let one get too far ahead of the others.
    Of course not. There has to be balance. I'm not advocating the crucible every day. But there shoudl be options available for people who like a spicier flabor of training. I don't want to train at a school where I'm worried about destroying half the people in it. I want to be the worst guy there. That way I learn with everybody. You can't let one get further ahead but since not everybody starts with all those points in nuetral sometimes yoou have to tailor.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    What I'm saying is that there has to be a balance. You don't have to elbow someone in the head or get Thai kicked on the inside of your thigh too many times to figure out that it works. You don't have to get beat up all that much to figure out that pain hurts but can be overcome. And if you take too many hard shots you'll get damaged. When I was in the JKDC family there was a guy in class who was a hot kickboxing prospect. He was getting a lot of fights and getting flown as far away as South Africa for bouts. Great athlete. Great future. He was also really enthusiastic about getting the crap kicked out of himself in hard hard practice.
    But you do have to condition a person. You have to get them occustomed to punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    That was his undoing. He started having trouble with his balance and finally went to a doctor. It turns out he had gotten his bell rung one too many times and had damaged his cerebellum. You don't get better from that. Brain damage is cumulative. Last I heard he was driving a garbage truck for a living.
    </sermon>

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Along the lines of the sermon, there's a couple of new people in class. They've been friends for a long time. She's about five foot nothing and has a black belt in TKD. She's recovering nicely :) He's six four, strong, runs five miles a day and had fifteen or twenty years of Silat in the Netherlands with some pretty formidable people including a guy who escaped a Japanese concentration camp and became a partisan. That's not counting what he learned from his foster Indonesian family.
    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    And he's Dutch which means he has no tolerance for bullshit and doesn't believe anything unless you can prove it.

    When he first showed up he needed some proof. I took a few lumps and dished a few out. So did a couple of the other longer-time students. Eventually he decided we weren't complete fuckups. He didn't have to prove anything. Neither did we. It's all good now. But when we get into the one-against-many sparring I'm going to wear the Red Man suit. There's no sense losing brain cells that I have earmarked for drunken debauchery.
    That's all I ask for. Proof. Nothing on faith anymore. Nothing on the word of another without either substantial proof beroehand, or proof on the spot.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  6. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 2:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Chaos
    tellner-

    i agree with you for the most part. but where i think a lot of silat fails is playing the "too deadly to spar" card. in my group we wanted to pressure test EVERYTHING we had to see what worked and what didn't. we finally came to the conclusion that basically anything and everything worked if your opponent was unaware of what you were doing. the more fancy and esoteric techniques did indeed work, but they required a LOT of practice. we concluded that working the fighting basics (boxing, kicking, basic wrestling) often were crucial to our training as real fighters.

    so yeah, the hard sparring doesn't HAVE to happen all the time, but it needs to be done at least 75% of the time. we used to do "one step" sparring, which was go in, start fighting, and once a complete technique was pulled off, stop and have the class critique the fight. that was actually quite helpful. it sucked that many times the fight was stopped right when you were in reptilian brain "kill or be killed" mode, but it was helpful to see how, when and where our fancy techniques were applicable.

    i guess the bottom line is this- i like my training to be extreme and violent, but i also like it to be that way under controlled conditions where that extremity is ultimately an education. there are many and varied teaching methods and they all have SOME merit to some degree.

    in the end, like jp i'm in this to be a FIGHTER, not a philosopher or religious mystic/ preacher. we all have our own goals. but i can tell you that i appreciate both your's and jp's attitude to this particular art. it sounds like you guys got into it for the same reasons i did. i've been on training hiatus for awhile, but after posting in this thread i think i'm going to get back into the game. i really miss training silat. it can mean 100 different things to 100 different people, but you have to give it credit for it's intensity, no matter what background you're coming from.
    I think you and I are gonna get along ust fine. Any chance of you making the boston throwdown in January? Me and a buddy are thinking of comng up for it. Would love to meet and talk in person.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  7. Lord Of Chaos is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    155

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 3:21pm


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jan. is a super busy month for me, and i'm not very well fit enough to be scrapping w/ 22 year old mma monsters who would put me in a coma in like 2 seconds. that said, if i'm allowed to go there and watch (maybe participate a little) i'd be down. when and where is it btw?
  8. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 3:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Chaos
    jan. is a super busy month for me, and i'm not very well fit enough to be scrapping w/ 22 year old mma monsters who would put me in a coma in like 2 seconds. that said, if i'm allowed to go there and watch (maybe participate a little) i'd be down. when and where is it btw?
    I think we're still working it out. There's no pressure to scrap, but I'd love it if maybe you'd consent to brining a couple of training blades and give me a short, very leisurely, tutorial. I've never had first hand instruction in Silat knife stuff and I'm curious. The spirit of the throwdowns is always that you do whatever you want to do. Watching and participating a little fall under tha category. These aren't callenge matches or some similar bullshit.

    My invitation was more in the spirit of meeting you face to face. Otherwise, when you get back into it in RI, I've no problem making the trip up there.

    The Boston throwdown thread is yet to be created but I know those guys are thinking about it already. I'll keep you posted.
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
  9. tellner is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    151

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 4:56pm


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JP and Lord of Chaos,

    Good talking to you, guys. I'm pretty sure that we agree on the important stuff once we get the words out of the way.

    The "too deadly to spar" stuff is a serious cop out. No question. It can also have a certain amount of truth. Once you have the neck crank on there's no reason to take it further just to prove that it works. And I'm willing to take it on faith that a few hard blows to the back of the head can **** up your day (week, month, year, life). We lost a really serious student a while back. It was a Minangkabau Harimau class (Guru Plinck learned that from his uncle). One of the students had gotten a leg lock on her, but she kept wiggling out. Then he locked it down hard. When she tried to squirm there was the snapping sound of an ACL giving way. Not good. Very bad.

    A good engineer always tests. A clumsy one always tests to structural failure :)

    The Sulong tournament near Chicago this September was interesting. My good friend and unindicted co-conspirator Mushtaq Ali Al-Ansari took a bunch of his Silat students to play. They cleaned up. He's got some interesting thoughts on why a lot of Silat guys won't throw down.

    Some years back I met a guy who was finishing his Sports Medicine dissertation at OSU. He worked as a scientist for the Thai government's Sports Ministry. They were trying to figure out how to make Thai boxing safer without turning it into Tae Kwon Do. His tentative conclusion? You can't. As long as there are knees, elbows and the Teh you will have deaths and serious injuries. That's why there's no hard sparring in most Thai training camps or gyms. Guys get injured and can't fight. The camp loses the money it's invested in them.
    Last edited by tellner; 12/24/2007 5:00pm at .
  10. JP is offline
    JP's Avatar

    It's all about the clinch. The clinch, I said.

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,290

    Posted On:
    12/24/2007 6:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: SAMBO, mma, jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    JP and Lord of Chaos,
    Good talking to you, guys. I'm pretty sure that we agree on the important stuff once we get the words out of the way.
    Likewise.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    The "too deadly to spar" stuff is a serious cop out. No question. It can also have a certain amount of truth. Once you have the neck crank on there's no reason to take it further just to prove that it works. And I'm willing to take it on faith that a few hard blows to the back of the head can **** up your day (week, month, year, life). We lost a really serious student a while back. It was a Minangkabau Harimau class (Guru Plinck learned that from his uncle). One of the students had gotten a leg lock on her, but she kept wiggling out. Then he locked it down hard. When she tried to squirm there was the snapping sound of an ACL giving way. Not good. Very bad.
    Thats why there is tapping. And safety gear. And mouthpieces. So you can play harder.

    Maybe there's something in your writing I'm not seeing, but I fail to see how the loss of a student due to injury is anything but that students lack of commitment to their training. Or possibly your teacher's failing to get across how dangerous a leg-lock is. The rule with leglocks is tap before you feel like you need to. Its her fault. She made a mistake in judgement, happens to all of us, one time or another, not like its the end of the world. But she found her threshold. That made her quit training?

    I can guarantee that if something similar happened in a submission grappling gym they'd take good care of the injured, ice it, make sure they got medical attention. Then they'd call the student an idiot for not tapping.

    Also, what's the matter with the guy locking up her leg? He have something to prove?

    All your story tells me is what I already know, not enough time spent in live training so the few times you go live, nobody knows how to act.

    Perhaps I'm missing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    A good engineer always tests. A clumsy one always tests to structural failure :)
    I agree. But sometimes you have to experience failing before you can fully assess the cost of the attempt. Its not good gambling when you don't know just how deep your pockets go.

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    The Sulong tournament near Chicago this September was interesting. My good friend and unindicted co-conspirator Mushtaq Ali Al-Ansari took a bunch of his Silat students to play. They cleaned up. He's got some interesting thoughts on why a lot of Silat guys won't throw down.
    Is it one of those tournaments with the chest protectors? What are those thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by tellner
    Some years back I met a guy who was finishing his Sports Medicine dissertation at OSU. He worked as a scientist for the Thai government's Sports Ministry. They were trying to figure out how to make Thai boxing safer without turning it into Tae Kwon Do. His tentative conclusion? You can't. As long as there are knees, elbows and the Teh you will have deaths and serious injuries. That's why there's no hard sparring in most Thai training camps or gyms. Guys get injured and can't fight. The camp loses the money it's invested in them.
    Ummm. Duh. But you're not gonna sit there and tell me these guys aren't hitting each other some of the time. I respect your position that too much rough-housing can injure people and I'm not really arguing with it. But I'll stick to my point, playing hard should be available for those who want to pay the freight. And in a lot of traditional schools it just isn't there.

    For want of the proper laboratory, people thought the earth was flat...I'm pretty sure some of them still do. People think Man popped into existence at the whim of a cosmic being. These are the hold-overs of primitive thought that's scared of thunder and think its the sound of god beating his wife (true native american folk saying.)

    Without the propper lab, I.E. live/pressured training and competition, traditional arts are able to teach elaborate techniques that don't work in the reality we inhabit. Or only work for those with supreme physical gifts. Barbara taught some of the dumbest **** I've ever seen and presented it as combat effective....Guess what I found out when I tested it?

    I'll give you a hint, the other guy wasn't the one who got marked up. Its all good though I used to black-eye to get laid.
    Last edited by JP; 12/24/2007 7:36pm at .
    Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
    and remember what peace there may be in silence.
    As far as possible, without surrender,
    be on good terms with all persons.
    Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
    and listen to others,
    even to the dull and ignorant;
    they too have their story.

    -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.
Page 11 of 18 FirstFirst ... 7891011 12131415 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.