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  1. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2003 7:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, I really am not trying to start a flame war with Wing Chun people, but I have some hard questions.
    Yesterday after training, a couple guys started sparring with each other. They both claimed to have had some background in Wing Chun. I'm not sure what, I didn't really know how to ask. Real Chinese systems are rankless anyway, aren't they?
    Anyway, to my untrained eye, it looked like they were slapfighting. I couldn't understand why neither of them would take the initiative to close distance and actually strike the other. They were totally occupied with each other's hands. Other footage I've seen seems to bear this out.
    So I looked around a little and read up, and now I want to ask about the "trapping" range. Do you really think this is a real range? It seems really strategically confused. I read a Matt Thornton article on this, and I'll be honest, I would have been reluctant to say anything until I'd found someone else that agreed with me. I can't imagine being able to manipulate that range at all unless you were fighting another WC (not a joke) guy who was willing to engage in it with you. Where's the forward momentum? Lateral motion? Level changes? I just don't get it.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  2. gong sau is offline

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2003 9:51pm

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     Style: Brazillian Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No flame wars necessary. Feel free to ask what you wish. Just remember that I am just an egg; I don't have all (or possibly even the correct) answers. :) There are others here who are much more knowledgeable than I.

    1. Wing chun is rankless for the most part. Some sifu have introduced rankings to be able to group students better. As you might imagine, it is generally larger schools that do this.

    2. Wing chun admonishes chasing the hands, which is what you describe the two guys doing.

    3. "Trapping" is a misnomer. In JKD they might do trapping, but if you are trying to trap, you are not doing wing chun. The only time you might see something akin to trapping is if the wing chun exponent is fighting someone who is very skilled with their hands. Think of it kind of like a flow chart. The main idea is to attack. If an arm comes up to intercept an attack, it is redirected (preferably with another attack), and the attack is resumed. This should be continuous, and always with forward motion/force. There is no stop-motion "trapping" where the object is to pin the arm. The idea is more to control the opponent as a whole, and keep the arms out of the way of your attacks.

    It's really hard to describe, you have to see the real thing in action.

    Ok, flamers on your marks...




    First, I'm gonna hit ya...then you're gonna fall
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    "The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
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  3. Little Idea is offline
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    Ready are you? What know you of ready?

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 1:32am

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     Style: EBMAS WT(& Prenatal Yoga)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel,

    1) Trapping is not a range, that's just JKD misinformation.

    2) Trapping is not a goal. The goal is continuous attack through the center line, starting with punches and kicks, pressing forward into elbows and knees. Trapping can happen through out and transition from one range to the next.

    3) Many many Wing Chun people are fucking horrible.

    I met a really old man that trained with Yip Man. He only trained for a short period in his youth. His training was not continued and he enjoyed life as a businessman in the US. His opinion was the best way to learn WC was to get in real fights on a regular basis.

    Theory will only get you so far.
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

    Talk to TBK's boyfriend:

  4. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 1:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "3) Many many Wing Chun people are fucking horrible."

    I guess this basically answers my question. Thanks guys.



    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  5. JKDChick is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 3:15am

    staff
     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Trapping is not a range, that's just JKD misinformation.
    Blow me, dude. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

    Ranges are partially defined by the "tools" available.

    Kicking = long range, when only the foot can hit.
    Punching = medium range, when you can hit with foot or fist
    Trapping = close range, when you've got knees, elbows, headbutts, eyegouges, hip checks; all the vicious stuff occurs in trapping range. It was Wing Chun's great gift to JKD; don't demean it.
    Ground = extreme close range, when you're clinched either standing or on the ground. Within ground, there are ranges, since you can sometimes punch.

    Trapping is first and foremost a range. Look, I think to a great extent it is trapping that defines JKD as a seperate art. Only Wing Chun really trains in that range, and from your responses it's easy to see it might not be respected for what it is: the place where things get nasty.

    By the by, trapping is taught and considered a very transient range as well. You spend the least time there in any fight, yet it has the most effective application in the "real world". Interesting, no?

    And I'm not trying to start a war either. I'm also not going to hear people dissing JKD without a little tongue in cheek banter.

    (board breaks with a kick)
    "Is that it? I feel like I should bow, or have honor or something."

    -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "Once More, With Feeling"
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
  6. Fisting Kittens is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 3:41am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Only WC and JKD train in that range? ummmm...sure. I've been "out trapped" a few times in sparring, usually with a stylist of the above mentioned arts. Solution: a full on shoot. They fold so fast its not even funny.
  7. JKDChick is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 3:46am

    staff
     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, WC and JKD aren't the only arts that train in trapping range -- but I think they do more in that range than any other art.

    (board breaks with a kick)
    "Is that it? I feel like I should bow, or have honor or something."

    -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "Once More, With Feeling"
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
  8. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 4:13am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JKDChick:

    JKD and WC are simply more famous for trapping amongst mainstream martial arts. Western pugilism, such as boxing, utilized what is now popularly referred to as "trapping". The usage of 'named' ranges was, as you infer, was merely intended to aid in training ("these are the tools for 'this' range", etc).
  9. silentdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 5:01am


     Style: escrima, wc

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hmm, i'm not sure what actually is considered 'real' trapping (may also be a language problem ;)). for example when i do a lap sau (short wrist grab to off-balance the opponent) to pull a little, so the attack with my other hand gains more impact power ... is that already trapping? those are very basic WC movements which i think don't only work against WC people.

    however i tend more to see trapping as something more advanced. trapping literally means "to set up a trap" which results mostly in some position where the opponent has both arms and/or his body locked up (while this lock ideally can be controlled with only one hand). i know this type of trapping more from escrima than from WC. and it is something EXTREMELY difficult to do. the basic idea behind it is that you "program" the movements of your opponent by abusing his reflexes to your advantage. the difficult thing is to get your opponent where you want him to be. however you absolutely mustn't think several moves ahead because if you do that you're focused on only one possibility and if it doesn't work out you're lost. that's why only very few people master trapping. you really have to be able to trap someone while you're asleep ;)

    as for most WC practicioners being bad, i agree completely. i think the problem is that WC is considered a "soft" stlye which is often misinterpreted. soft means only that you don't use brutal force to block force but try to redirect or intercept it early enough. however WC is - and has to be - a very forward-oriented and extremely agressive style. a WC fighter isn't supposed so stay in long and medium range for longer than one punch/kick. if you don't move in immediately WC is indeed weak. and you can't learn that without - tadaaa - sparring. it doesn't have to be full contact sparring but at least light sparring where you get into the right range and place your strikes well but without force.
  10. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/25/2003 5:59am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    silentdog:

    Being the non-traditionalist that I am, I simply view trapping as any action that intentionally uses 'non-instantaneous' contact to engage the enemy and expose a target to attack. Thus when a boxer hooks a block or cover to expose the head, it's a trap. If a fencer draws a thrust and then presses the thrusting blade while making his own attack, it's a trap. When a wrestler suddenly presses his opponent's arms to set him up, it's a trap.

    The 'problem' with trapping is that people try to use it as a technique. Teaching it as a preset movement, whether it is guan sao, lop sao, pak sao, or whatever, is particularly foolish when practice is conducted on an opponent that fights in a known way.
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