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  1. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2004 1:51am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ving Tsun clips from Austin, TX.

    http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.n...5?OpenDocument
    -chi sao
    http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.n...9?OpenDocument
    -kick defense
    http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.n...e?OpenDocument
    -overhand punch defense
    http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.n...1?OpenDocument
    -chain punch
    or just go to http://appliedkungfu.com/brice/my3.n...F?OpenDocument for more clips.


    These are demo clips from the school I train at. Give criticisms/comments or ask questions. I just want to know what people think.
  2. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2004 5:10am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    umm , the Kick defenses were okay , pretty much standard WC Principles ...

    The Chi Sao was , well , weak . Why is it that the only things to Land were those wierd versions of Tan Sau with Fists at the end ? This shouldnt even Score ! Youre not really controlling the Line WITH YOUR POWER becxause you have none here . if the opponent goes for your Elbow from below you basically just end up in the Clouds somewhere . Theres no way that your going to do any damage with this Punch , and on top of that a decent bong/pak would turn into a nightmare for the person punching like this . Not only that , but there was very little Line Control , especially on the Outside , and it mostly seemed like a Speed game in stead of a Sensitivity Drill . This WOULD teach you how to "win" a Chi Sau competition , buit its not good training for how to HIT someone in a fight .

    Punch Defense - Why was the guy a sissy ? he seemed to Buckle if the other guy blinked at him . Why did he always start from 10 yards ? Why no Combos ?

    The Chainpunching was , well , why were the punches allowed to land like that ? I mean , tapping someone with whats basically a "Downwards Backfist" (Basically Tan Sau with your hand balled up into a Fist) is just going to Annoy them , really . Youve only got Triceps and a TINY bit of Shoulder in it . the Fist should hit the Opponent Flush and Vertical , not to mention that the force of the blow should be rising up and forward AWAY from the Punchers feet , not falling downward tward the Targets feet .
  3. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/10/2004 7:44am


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    oh dear...

    chi sao needs to parcticed (at least at first) from a position of absolute neutrality..

    pulsing in and out creates moment where you arms are moving towards your own body.. are you comming back or is he comming in? hard to tell

    concentrate on yourself and learn to keep you wrists at the same distance from your body at all moments rolling.. the collapse is indication to move YOUR FEET and not straight backwards into the kick to the groin nobody has clocked on should be throw at this point... it really is that basic..

    translating chi sao into something real is not present in theses videos... absorbing force into your stance as demonstrted by one of the vids and taught as some fantastic method in various wing chun ving tsun wing zung or other numerous BULLSHIDO associations is the FUCKING DUMBEST THING IN THE UNIVERSE

    1. you can't absorb forces of that great a magnitude and even then only if they attack you like some demented K shaped Darlek

    2. congratulations you have now successfully allowed your opponent to completley immobilise you by pinning your feet to the floor with your special chi power stance! do not pass go do not collect $200 instead go straight to hospital!

    jamming is viable only if you can counter IN. there is no point creating a dead moment where you can't fucking move... is it.

    MOBILITY

    Boris
    london
    Last edited by mididoctors; 10/12/2004 8:29am at .
  4. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 1:11am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Djimbe

    The Chi Sao was , well , weak . Why is it that the only things to Land were those wierd versions of Tan Sau with Fists at the end ? This shouldnt even Score ! Youre not really controlling the Line WITH YOUR POWER becxause you have none here . if the opponent goes for your Elbow from below you basically just end up in the Clouds somewhere . Theres no way that your going to do any damage with this Punch , and on top of that a decent bong/pak would turn into a nightmare for the person punching like this .


    weird versions of tan sau? I don't know what you mean...Score? What power is used to control the line djimbe?
  5. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 1:23am


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by mididoctors
    oh dear...

    chi sao needs to parcticed (at least at first) from a position of absolute neutrality..

    pulsing in and out creates moment where you arms are moving towards your own body.. are you comming back or is he comming in? hard to tell

    concentrate on yourself and learn to keep you wrists at the same distance from your body at all moments rolling.. the collapse is indication to move YOUR FEET and not straight backwards into the kick to the groin nobody has clocked on should be throw at this point... it really is that basic..

    translating chi sao into something real is not present in theses videos... absorbing force into your stance as demonstrted by one of the vids and taught as some fantastic method in various wing chun ving tsun wing zung or other numerous BULLSHIDO associations is the FUCKING DUMBEST THING IN THE UNIVERSE

    1. you can't absorb forces of that great a magnitude and even then only if they attack you like some demented K shaped Darlek

    2. congratulations you have now successfully allowed your opponent to completley immobilise you by pinning your feet to the floor with your special chi power stance! do not pass go do not collect $200 instead go straight to hospital!

    jamming is viable only if you can counter IN their is no point creating a dead moment where you can't fucking move... is it.

    MOBILITY

    Boris
    london
    I prefer to keep my elbows at a safe distance from my body, rather then focusing on my wrists. When they start to collapse, I move my stance backwards.
    Boris, could you give a less garbled explanation of when to kick to the groin? How do YOU train chi sao as a translation into something real?

    I agree that mobility is very necessary, which is why we train to move our stance while absorbing(or applying) force. If you think this is impossible I'm not going to argue with you...
  6. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 6:12am


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by grond
    I prefer to keep my elbows at a safe distance from my body, rather then focusing on my wrists. When they start to collapse, I move my stance backwards.
    same thing if your arm position is kept intact..isn't it?

    if you let your wrists collapse he is NEARER YOU is he not?

    you should be developing movement in your feet earlier ie do not wait until your wrist position has collapsed so you have to move you feet EVEN faster if he continues his Momentum through your position?...

    this is "teH anti grappl3"! (anti clinch actually but splitting hairs) ie keep him from breaking you centre of balance by pushing your weight from YOUR toes onto your heels

    chi sao is built from ARBITARY positions ie its not real! being able to jam with your stance is a counter to the position that will not occur in real fight ..yes? ie a next to worthless skill..

    there are several cheats to wing chun chi sao that are the counter to the original position ie moves that will work if you found your self in a fight doing chi sao! not very likley so tenseing the back of your legs or double outward gang fuk saos or footed rooted double hands etc are all pointless skills .... sensitivity trainning has to choose a position as a NEUTRAL ARBITARY starting point... this is a compromise.. defeating the position is NOT the aim unless you are in some pissing contest.

    Boris, could you give a less garbled explanation of when to kick to the groin? How do YOU train chi sao as a translation into something real?
    first off

    KICKING IS A STEPPING ACTION... remember that.. unless your in crounching tiger or doing some flying double kick (even then its stll true) when you kick you have to put your foot back down

    in this clip there are several very good kicking chances "think rear leg" and a natural step through keeping you hip alignment as natural as possable...

    if you step forward with your right foot.. he steps back with HIS right foot kick him with your left foot immeduatley you detect this occuring with you super dupper wing chun sensitivity trainning..

    this skill is a basic simple easy learnt REAL fight winner.. the simplicity of it is belied by the fact you need to develope the awarness of it happening

    once you develope this usefull reflex you will catch people mid step in the lower mid section... kick hip/ lower rib height you have the greatest reach and the best chance of contact..

    do not over commit the kicking leg instead think of it as a STEP and put it down where your going to set up the next rear kick or more likley a knee strike if you have made good contact. if he side steps you need to be able to react to that..


    I agree that mobility is very necessary, which is why we train to move our stance while absorbing(or applying) force. If you think this is impossible I'm not going to argue with you...
    well that is semantics but yes i agree i guess.. i see little in the videos thou

    how did you fight antagony...?

    absorbing force only has meaning if you are in a position to counter at the 'dead point' ie the moment the two of you become stationary you hit him with the set up the jam was intended to created ie in range.....

    this is not evident in the clips

    respect (i mean that) enjoyed the oppertunity to talk about this

    Boris
    London
  7. much love is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 8:43am


     Style: Jazzercise

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like your site Grond and look forward to getting together again soon.

    I have trained in a bunch of lines and each has a different flavor.

    I appreciate the distinct flavor of your school's WC.

    I don't have mobile matts like Antagony.

    Would you care to come to South Austin Gym again?

    MWF at 8ish (to begin at 8:30) rocks for me.

    Respect!
  8. BaguaZhang is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 8:46am


     Style: BAGUA - HSINGI - BOXING

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    chi sao was weak.
  9. grond is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 12:26pm


     Style: wingy chingy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by mididoctors
    same thing if your arm position is kept intact..isn't it?

    if you let your wrists collapse he is NEARER YOU is he not?

    you should be developing movement in your feet earlier ie do not wait until your wrist position has collapsed so you have to move you feet EVEN faster if he continues his Momentum through your position?...

    this is "teH anti grappl3"! (anti clinch actually but splitting hairs) ie keep him from breaking you centre of balance by pushing your weight from YOUR toes onto your heels

    chi sao is built from ARBITARY positions ie its not real! being able to jam with your stance is a counter to the position that will not occur in real fight ..yes? ie a next to worthless skill..

    there are several cheats to wing chun chi sao that are the counter to the original position ie moves that will work if you found your self in a fight doing chi sao! not very likley so tenseing the back of your legs or double outward gang fuk saos or footed rooted double hands etc are all pointless skills .... sensitivity trainning has to choose a position as a NEUTRAL ARBITARY starting point... this is a compromise.. defeating the position is NOT the aim unless you are in some pissing contest.



    first off

    KICKING IS A STEPPING ACTION... remember that.. unless your in crounching tiger or doing some flying double kick (even then its stll true) when you kick you have to put your foot back down

    in this clip there are several very good kicking chances "think rear leg" and a natural step through keeping you hip alignment as natural as possable...

    if you step forward with your right foot.. he steps back with HIS right foot kick him with your left foot immeduatley you detect this occuring with you super dupper wing chun sensitivity trainning..

    this skill is a basic simple easy learnt REAL fight winner.. the simplicity of it is belied by the fact you need to develope the awarness of it happening

    once you develope this usefull reflex you will catch people mid step in the lower mid section... kick hip/ lower rib height you have the greatest reach and the best chance of contact..

    do not over commit the kicking leg instead think of it as a STEP and put it down where your going to set up the next rear kick or more likley a knee strike if you have made good contact. if he side steps you need to be able to react to that..




    well that is semantics but yes i agree i guess.. i see little in the videos thou

    how did you fight antagony...?

    absorbing force only has meaning if you are in a position to counter at the 'dead point' ie the moment the two of you become stationary you hit him with the set up the jam was intended to created ie in range.....

    this is not evident in the clips

    respect (i mean that) enjoyed the oppertunity to talk about this

    Boris
    London
    Interesting. I'm not ready to train kicks in chi sao yet, I'm still working on my hands. So I can't really talk about kicking in chi sao. But one kick to end a fight?

    I still don't know what you mean when you say that chi sao is built from arbitrary positions and is not realy. All the techniques in chi sao that I know could be used in a fight. But chi sao is not fighting. It doesn't train you to how fight, it's not supposed to. It trains attributes like sensitivity, balance, coordination, timing and relaxation, along with developing strong stance and positions.
    If I get in a fight, am I going to start doing rolling hands with someone? No.

    So, what do you mean by jamming with your stance? And what are the cheats to wing chun chi sao? :)

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'letting your wrists collapse'? Are you holding force with your wrists? What you said about not waiting for the collapse, and about center of balance I totsally agree with.

    When I was sparring with antagony I really don't remember what kind of stance I was using unfortunately.

    Peace.
  10. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/11/2004 1:00pm


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by grond
    [B]Interesting. I'm not ready to train kicks in chi sao yet, I'm still working on my hands. So I can't really talk about kicking in chi sao. But one kick to end a fight?
    once things move your way don't give up the pressure.. yes?


    I still don't know what you mean when you say that chi sao is built from arbitrary positions and is not reality.
    the rolling hands is not a real thing... it is a movement designed to induce a learning process..

    a good example is rolling the FIRST thing you are taught is that the tan sao is in control

    ie don't roll until you opponents tan sao starts to move... you become aware of arm movement...

    conversley techniques leant in chi sao need to be reality checked

    do you pak sao attack from the fuk sao hand or the other...?


    All the techniques in chi sao that I know could be used in a fight. But chi sao is not fighting. It doesn't train you to how fight, it's not supposed to. It trains attributes like sensitivity, balance, coordination, timing and relaxation, along with developing strong stance and positions.
    If I get in a fight, am I going to start doing rolling hands with someone? No.
    I think that is correct(ish) but there is no reason why it shouldn't teach you how to move your feet either

    So, what do you mean by jamming with your stance? And what are the cheats to wing chun chi sao? :)
    there's loads.. experment with tensing the muscles in your upper back as you roll... don't get fooled in to thinking you are developing anything useful as a fighting skill... another both hands on top double jut sao man sao turning combo..basicly unblockable but only because its a meaningfull counter to the original position.... do you get my point about arbitary.. when you design some sensitivity drill you have to assign some starting point,, having the knowledge to defeat the starting point isn't that usefull

    edit add: pushing down as you punch in.. someone uses that in the clip i posted..

    pretty meaningless


    I'm not sure what you mean by 'letting your wrists collapse'? Are you holding force with your wrists? What you said about not waiting for the collapse, and about center of balance I totsally agree with.
    well you forearm makes an angle with your upper arm at the elbow if you don't collapse your elbow what angle are you going to wait till untill you decide to move? in reality that is? the pressure exerted on your position in chi sao is very directional and is a weakness of the arm techniques in WT... think about that


    When I was sparring with antagony I really don't remember what kind of stance I was using unfortunately.
    not a lot of absorbing stances rooting forces into the ground i bet

    Boris
    London
    Last edited by mididoctors; 10/11/2004 1:18pm at .
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