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  1. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Certified Fitness Trainer

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2004 9:58pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates
    This would be true if the industry had the needs of the individual as priority #1.

    Walk into 20, 50, or even 100 gyms of various types (standard, Pilates, "for women," Yoga, trendy MA-related, etc.). Follow the trainers around and pay attention to what they are espousing....then ask them if they know the primary purpose of the biceps brachii. Take note of how many of the facilities sell supplements. Ask if they have no-contract month-by-month plans.

    View 20 random "exercise" tapes. Evaluate the safety and effectiveness of what is being promoted. Dissect the validity of the science presented. Do the same with 20 different "infomercial" pieces of fitness equipment.

    The truth of the matter is....the industry is getting the desired result: profit.

    One might look to high level amateur and professional sports for scientifically valid training methodologies. The problem here is that these are elite athletes who can typically progress in spite of a poor approach. Furthermore, the potential negative impact of poor training can be overshadowed by improvement in skill, which is of greater importance. On top of that, the upper levels of competition always include pharmaceutical supplementation that renders any results rather skewed.

    Given all of these impasses, it is necessary to seek individuals who are not only educated but practice at a position where they are not subject to the agendas of others. This is precisely why I have studied with those who are pioneers and leaders without financial or personal interests.
    I don't know about some of the other gyms, but the one I work for requires a minimum of one third party nationally recognized certification, in addition to the certification course they put all their trainers through. I guarantee you each and every trainer at my gym and all the gyms in our chain know the fundamental use of the biceps brachii, as well as just about any other muscle in the body, including ones you've probably never heard of (teres major, infraspinatus, semimembranosus, vastus medialis....). Yes, you gym sells supplements, but so what? Supplements do have a use, and we only ever recommend goal-specific supplements, and typically only in special cases, such as plateau breaking. And what are you referring to with the no contract month by month plan? For the membership, for training time, what?

    Your second major paragraph regarding athletes is simply full of fallacy. Yes, genes do guide the way the body improves. No, genes are not magical fairies which make it so that no matter what "gifted" people do they always make progress. Any athlete will tell you that the number one key to their success was diligent, INTELLIGENT practice and training.

    Finally, name one single person who is a pioneer in the fitness industry that does not have some sort of financial or personal interest in the business. Virtually all pioneers were competitors of some kind at one time in their life. That right there is a financial AND personal interest. All of them have to make a living somehow, and I doubt they're devoting the time to getting PhDs and the like in various fitness fields simply as a hobby, while spending their daily lives delivering newspapers.
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    "You all just got fucking owned.";
    "TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."

    - The Wastrel
  2. Mediocrates is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2004 8:06pm


     Style: Fabio Santos BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know about some of the other gyms, but the one I work for requires a minimum of one third party nationally recognized certification, in addition to the certification course they put all their trainers through. I guarantee you each and every trainer at my gym and all the gyms in our chain know the fundamental use of the biceps brachii, as well as just about any other muscle in the body, including ones you've probably never heard of (teres major, infraspinatus, semimembranosus, vastus medialis....).
    Care to divulge the name of that chain? I've been in multiple facilities in multiple locations for pretty much every national organization.

    Yes, you gym sells supplements, but so what? Supplements do have a use, and we only ever recommend goal-specific supplements, and typically only in special cases, such as plateau breaking.
    Thank you for proving my point.

    Your second major paragraph regarding athletes is simply full of fallacy. Yes, genes do guide the way the body improves. No, genes are not magical fairies which make it so that no matter what "gifted" people do they always make progress.
    Ever had one of those people in a class....where never takes notes....never studies....yet still gets As on the tests?

    Any athlete will tell you that the number one key to their success was diligent, INTELLIGENT practice and training.
    I don't ask athletes to evaluate a training approach - that should be my job. If I did....well....we'd end up having tons of people doing power cleans under the assumption that it transfers to "explosiveness" on the field/court. Hmmmm......

    Finally, name one single person who is a pioneer in the fitness industry that does not have some sort of financial or personal interest in the business.
    My first candidate would be Newton.
  3. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2004 6:58am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >So you're saying that you need hours and hours
    >of exercise to get any kind of conditioning? You
    >need less than you think...

    One hour a day for fitness is all I need. Then an hour or two for MA twice a week.

    Sun - day off
    M - cardio
    T - cardio, MA
    W - cardio
    TH - sprints
    F - lift
    Sat - MA

    If I feel like taking a day off here or there, I just do. Some weeks I go every day. Some weeks I don't. I listen to my body. I just make sure that I don't miss my weight training since it's only once a week. If I miss it on Friday, I do it on Saturday and move MA to Monday or sub it for my cardio. I don't get paid to workout, I don't have to clock in, I enjoy it so I do it. I don't know all about what to eat and what chemicals to shove in where or what muscle is what in Latin. I just have a good work ethic, I enjoy working hard and a have a good sense of how my body works and what my goals are. I like it. It's playing outside. I like it more than TV so I do it instead of TV.

    I not only want to be able to defend myself, I WANT to be able to run fast and jump and climb and whatever. Something as subtle as only sparring indoors can make you vulnerable. Variation and becoming well-rounded as an athlete and a person is important to me. Being able to balance yourself on uneven ground while wrestling, knowing you can fight after sprinting 100 yards and clearing a fence, being able to tackle a guy who is running without getting kicked in the face, .. you can't learn that stuff on the mat. Training exclusively in sparring and nothing else is not realistic. That should be obvious.
  4. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    11/09/2004 12:55pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates
    Fighting is a skill and is specific.
    Strength is an element of fitness and is NOT specific.
    Endurance.....needs to be more carefully defined to determine what it is.

    Do not confuse specificity of skill acquisition with particular results of a given activity.



    Then I request that you do so in such a way that outlines the major physiological distinctions and how that creates different TYPES of adaptations.

    One so knowledgeable in applied physiology as yourself should not need me to explain that relative differences in bone structure, metabolic efficiency, thermogenics, and the ratio of slow-twitch and fast-twitch muscle fiber affect fitness as well as skills. Can an endomorph make a good sprinter? How would that person train for that event? How about and ectomorphic powerlifter? how does an ectomorphic frame develop slow-twitch fiber?

    Skills and fitness are complimentary traits. Your body utilizes the same process to acquire both. Physically and neurologically. The corallary I employed for specificity in training is valid for it's purpose. I suppose you could bat the semantics around if you want to , but my point remains: to improve at anything, it behooves you do do that thing.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  5. wingchunnewbie is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2004 3:59pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master
    Well, I suppose technically you do lose weight by taking a piss. Of course, it's meaningless and comes right back, but hey weight is weight right?
    You missed his point.

    It depends what kind of people you're training. If, when you talk about getting effective results being a necessity, you're talking about the kind of fitness trainers who work with elite atheletes, or military PT instructors, and can get fired when they fail to squeeze that extra 5% of performance from their charges, sure.

    However, think of all the fitness instructors who just take overweight middle-aged people through basic aerobic routines day after day. For them, not getting fired is about 1) Charm that keeps students enrolling, 2) Carefull attention to not pushing their unfit charges so hard that they pull a muscle.

    I'd say that the fact they did that for a living in no way acts as a 'reality check' on their opinions about the finer points of the most physiologically efficient ways to burn fat, or increase the endurance of the heart muscle.

    Even the most highly paid fitness trainers can have demonstrably little effect on their clients.

    Ever watch 'The Osbournes' ? Remember the grinning guy with the bouffant-har, cheesy tan and the chest wig who was Ozzy's personal trainer ?

    I bet that guy had all kinds of certifications. I _bet_ he was paid top-dollar.

    Now, think back to what kind of physical shape Ozzy was in...
  6. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/21/2004 6:07pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fine. say what you will, but the proof is in the pudding.

    I DARE you to come train with me for 6 months, follow everything I have you do, and NOT get tremendous results.
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    "You all just got fucking owned.";
    "TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."

    - The Wastrel
  7. NHB_Ben is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2004 2:25pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For 99.9% of the people on this forum, this debate is almost entirely useless.

    The bottom line is that you should do what you like to do. If you're doing something you don't want to do, then you're going to end up dropping it and giving up on being fit all together.

    You also have to look at your goals and the risks associated with them.
    If you want to be a marathon runner, you need to think about having great aerobic endurance and about potential joint injuries.
    If you want to be a wrestler, you need to think about having good anaerobic endurance and any potential injuries from whatever regimine your using (circuit training, raquetball?).
    Either way, once you've established yourself along one of these two paths then your fitness levels will probably be exceptional.

    Additionally, every person is different and you need to experiment with your training in order to find the best fit for you regardless of what the experts say. Most of them don't agree any way. For example, typically, in order to gain mass and look cut, most body builders suggest doing a 0-cardio bulk cycle (and gaining fat) and then doing a cut cycle for aesthetics. Personally, I find that I do best when I do some degree of aerobic training alongside lifting in order to accomplish this goal.
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