Posted On:7/28/2002 8:29pm
Wait a second, Kosen Judo? I thought Helio invented all those moves. Could you please describe this Kosen Judo in greater detail?
For example many Judo schools are adopting Bjj ground techniques which themselves were taken from Kosen Judo way back in the day. My Judo instructor is a former wrestler, so we get those techniques too.
Posted On:7/28/2002 9:21pm
Style: Baboo Baby
BJJ ground techniques weren't taken From Kosen Judo. Maeda left Japan before Kosen was really developed, they just happened to developed the same way.
Posted On:7/28/2002 9:22pm
Ninjitsu gets a bad rap because there's so many fakes out there.
Posted On:7/28/2002 9:42pm
Style: Karate, Wrestling
But let me assure you, this is the best website for all aspiring Ninja: www.realultimatepower.net
And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
I restore the Balance
Posted On:7/29/2002 2:02am
Style: I wear pants
Subject: News article titled, "Secrets of the NINJA"
Source: Midweek June 19, 2002 edition (Midweek is a free, newspaper delivered to all
island residents weekly)
"....Mark Saito...the grand master of a family tradition of ninjitsu, the fighting art of the ninja,
which stretches back 30-odd generations in the Saito clan, according to family legend. Saito
ninjitsu, says its grand master, stays faithful to the early forms, eschewing the showy kicks
of chinese styles and the straight-ahead fisticuffs of karate. It's a more fluid style geared
toward neutralizing an opponent in close quarters with a deft dodge and a fusillade of short,
sharp, frighteningly well-placed punches that "allow you to take a man apart at the seams."
...Saito demonstrates these moves in a hypothetical fight with his assistant, a human prop
whose job is to wade into his masters trap and absorb the inevitable blows. The 50-year-
old Saito clearly relishes each wallop, stopping at one point to declare, "I love this art" as
he clinically maps out a combination of punches starting at the neck, moving down the torso,
and culminating in "the killing blow" to the testicles of his adversary, which "scrambles his
"I can teach you to do some miraculous things, if you stay with me long enough," Saito,
with a gleam in his eye, tells his admiring pupils. Apparently one of those incredible skills
is Saito's ability to keep a straight face when recounting some of the legend surrounding
the family art. As good as delivering an entertaining sales pitch as he is delivering a punch,
Saito recounts how an angel bestowed the magical prowess of the ninja on his clan
generations ago in northern Japan, how they learned other fighting techniques form
benevolent mountain demons, and how past Saito family members have been able to rise
up and fly through the air.
As if suddenly realizing he was talking to a skeptical reporter, Saito admits that all that was
"probably 95 percent legend." But he insists he's seen traces of the old magic in his father.
A carpenter by day, Saito recalls once walking high up along ceiling joists at a work site
with his father when the elder Saito dropped all the way down to the floor and then rose
effortlessly back up through the air again to where he had been. "I've seen my father do
some incredible things. Incredible."
Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists and the Dominate Prevailing Force in the martial arts political arena
Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
Posted On:7/29/2002 6:56am
Kosen Judo simply means "grappling Judo", or Judo that focuses on, or favors Newaza (ground fighting). Since Gracie/Brazilian Jj, favor Newaza it can be considered a form of Kosen Judo.
Kodokan Judo favored Nagewaza (standing throws) because Kano himself hated Newaza. However, the Kodokan got their a$$es handed to them by Fusen Ryu Jujutsu in 1900. The Fusen Ryu were masters of ground fighting, and used it to stomp the Kodokan. Thus, Kano added the Newaza of both Fusen Ryu and Jikishin Ryu jujutsu to the Judo syllabus. After that, Judo began to lean towards Newaza, which in turn led to the birth of Kosen Judo.
That was well in the time frame of Maeda, who joined the Kodakan in 1897 and left for the Americas in 1904. Maeda's style was based on Newaza, so are the Gracies. That's classic Kosen Judo folks.
Kimura spanked Helio because Kimura was simply better at Kosen Judo than Helio was. He even called the Gracie style "crude". You better believe that the Gracies learned some stuff from Kimura before he headed back to Japan.
Injury Waiting To Happen
Posted On:7/29/2002 11:34am
Style: Snatch Wrestling
I think that was A) Early in the developement of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and B) Kimura had a big weight advantage. I mean he did win but he had an advantage going in.
Posted On:7/29/2002 11:45am
Helio also challenged Kimura. Weight advantage or not, Helio believed his skill was greater and therefore made the challenge.
By his own admission, Helio was choked out during that fight. And then, as we all know, he was submitted.
The weight advantage is just a bull **** excuse used by too many Helio fans to avoid recognizing that he got whooped. To his own credit, I have never read anything from Helio that did the same thing.
And in BJJ's defense, Where is Kosen Judo now? BJJ has evolved constantly over the fifty year span since Helio Fought Kimura. It (BJJ) is not the same art it was then.
Posted On:7/29/2002 4:34pm
Dj is right, the Gracies challenged Judo, and Judo sent its three best grapplers to Brazil. To Helio Gracie's credit, he did defeat one of them, but the other one refused to fight. Kimura however, took the challenge.
The Gracies brought a coffin to the match, symbolizing that Kimura was going to be killed by Gracie.
Kimura broke Gracie's left elbow. Gracie didn't tap out even after his arm was broken, it was Gracie's side that threw in the towel.
As for Kosen Judo, thanks to Bjj, and NHB events, its enjoying a come back in many Judo clubs worldwide.
Posted On:8/02/2002 12:54pm
Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ
To the origional question. With all the 'ninja' crap, that is one of the reasons that Hatsumi Sensei changed the name of his art to Budo Taijutsu
To win an unarmed conflict don't stay unarmed
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