224976 Bullies, 3383 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 24
Page 1 of 3 1 23 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. M.C. Busman is offline

    Martial Arts Researcher

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    45

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 3:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Research & Work

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    MacYoung on Cults & Pirates (Niiice)

    I just read these for the first time. Great reading, sensible explanations, no BS (o.k., not much). Sure, MacYoung's selling his own product--and not cheaply. Sure, he continually "disses" traditional martial arts. But he can also spot a crock of shiz-nit as it arcs towards the fan. And does a good job of explaining how he and others (and you, too!) can be crock-spotters :) So print this stuff out & add it to your collection. Or don't.


    Marc MacYoung on martial arts pirates

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htm

    Marc MacYoung on martial arts cults:

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm



    Stay Safe,

    M.C. Busman
  2. LLL is offline

    X

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    2,869

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 3:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's a great idea to take MAs from pirates, as they regularily beat ninjas, the common enemy of all martial artists. ;)

    (No I didn't read the articles... I tried, but they didn't seem very interesting & I don't like MacYoung).
  3. Wounded Ronin is offline
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar

    ...is THE PENETRATOR

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,815

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 3:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even though everyone around here slams MacYoung, I do like his writing on cults.

    I'm not sure what the big deal about "pirates" is, though. It seems to me that based on that article, anyone who teaches kata but who at the same time otherwise dosen't know what they're doing is a "pirate" on some level. Why do we need a special classification?
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 9/21/2004 4:01pm at .
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  4. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,115

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 7:59pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Skimmed the article, will read it when I have time.

    It's a good premise, and I hate to pick nits, but using the term "pirates" sincerely is just going to get you laughed at by anyone who's been to realultimatepower.net.

    Thanks for the links.
  5. OneWingedAngel is offline
    OneWingedAngel's Avatar

    Psi Vampire Bane

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    584

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 9:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol thanks for the sig
    Seriously, most likely grabbing somebodies crotch like that is only going to make your situation much, much worse. Unless the person doing the gullotine has no pants on, then it's okay as long as they bought you dinner first. - Kidnemo

    I don't know about angels, but it's fear that gives men wings - Max Payne
  6. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    829

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 9:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MaCyoung is a wannabee cultleader.He's just mad that his groupies are all pot bellied white men and not hippie chicks like the top cult leaders get.
  7. Deadpan Scientist is offline

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    8,293

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 9:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Strong Machine
    MaCyoung is a wannabee cultleader.He's just mad that his groupies are all pot bellied white men and not hippie chicks like the top cult leaders get.
    Wouldn't you be?
  8. Wounded Ronin is offline
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar

    ...is THE PENETRATOR

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,815

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 10:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Strong Machine
    MaCyoung is a wannabee cultleader.He's just mad that his groupies are all pot bellied white men and not hippie chicks like the top cult leaders get.

    He has a female listserv admin, or something.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  9. Hedgehogey is offline
    Hedgehogey's Avatar

    Tsun-Derrorist

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,330

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 11:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My dissection of one of macyoung's articles. The original article has quote on the top and brackets on the bottom of each section I dissect.

    Quote:
    I have taken extreme flak from people about my views on grappling. Usually these people are grappling proponents and believe that my answers to grappling challenges are re too simplistic. >>>

    That and they're just plain wrong.
    Quote:
    Well, as long as we are talking about simple, I have three basic standards:

    1) If you end up on the ground against someone trying to seriously hurt you, you ****ed up
    2) Get up immediately
    3) Submission fighting is to be used only on people who you want to control, *not* hurt (e.g. a drunk friend) >>>

    All wrong.
    Quote:

    Does this mean I am "against" grappling? Does it mean I don't think it's worth learning? Does this mean I am inexperienced on the ground? >>>

    Yes. Yes. Name the groundfighting school you learned at, please.
    Quote:
    No.

    What it does mean, however, is that I have experience with issues that grappling's "true believers" don't like to look at. Those experiences -- including watching a guy get "stomped" by upwards of twenty people while on the ground (he spent six months in the hospital) -- makes me a little leery about the universal applicability of groundfighting in so-called "real fights." >>>

    Of course whatever it is "the animal" teaches will get you out of trouble when 20 guys want to stomp your head in.
    Quote:
    In fact, my experiences with being on the ground, tend to make me far, more of a savage than most people feel comfortable with.>>>

    Oooohhh, spoooky...
    Quote:
    But that isn't what this page is about, what it is about is should you cross train? >>>

    It's about me not wanting to lose students to MMA gyms.
    Quote:
    Why is grappling effective?
    In his book The High Crusade Poul Anderson speculated on what would happen if an advanced alien species attempted to conquer earth immediately after the Crusades. The premise of the book was that these aliens had become extremely adept at long-range, artillery-type warfare. They were shocked and confused when the knights, instead of hanging back and attempting to do battle at a distance, charged them and overwhelmed their positions. This simple, savage strategy worked only because the aliens had lost the ability to effectively fight at close quarters.>>>


    He talks about "REAL STR33TFIGHTING" and his main arguement comes from a SCIFI BOOK? OMG! WTF! BBQ!
    Quote:
    The success of grappling is due, in a large part, to the failure of sports-based martial arts in the West. >>>

    Actually it's due to the success of sports based martial arts in brazil.
    Quote:
    Ever since the introduction of gloved boxing, sport fighting has moved away from the old "bare knuckle/London rules" form. That kind of pugilism was designed to prevent clinches, headbutts, purring and a whole host of other vicious in-close tricks associated with their version of grappling. >>>

    So you're telling me bare knuckle boxers didn't grapple? Despite the fact that we've seen plenty of pictures of it? Despite the existence of throws in BKB? Despite the fact that groundfighting was illegal in many BKB matches? Have you even read the history of wrestling and jiujitsu vs boxing challenge matches? They go back to the turn of the century. Read those.
    Quote:
    The addition of padded gloves prevented many of these moves. And in time, sport fighting became a "sniping" game. Opponents do not rush each other, but hang back and exchanged blows and kicks from a distance. >>>

    Except for the thais.
    Quote:
    And in doing so, they forgot that an opponent could charge in and take them down.

    Wrestling and grappling are very popular sporting events in South America, however. "Brazilian" Jujitsu matches are events. These fighters hadn't forgotten about charging in -- but it was still a sport. And that means it had events, rules, weight division, safety equipment and organizations to give ranks, belts and titles. >>>

    Why yes. That's why they're called sport jiujitsu matches. However, a sport jiujitsu competitor will still kick your ass, macyoung.
    Quote:
    In the first Ultimate Fighting Championship, Northern Hemisphere fighters were just run over. Like the aliens in Anderson's book, they had forgotten that this kind of fighting even existed, much less had the vaguest idea how to counter it. >>>

    There's that scifi metaphor again.
    Quote:
    People flocked to the Gracie Jujitsu Academy(s), other so-called "Brazilian" Jujitsu schools and Val Tudo institutes to fill this hole in their training. >>>

    It's spelled ValE tudo. And thanks for the patronising quotes.
    Quote:
    You will notice, however, their reputation made, the Gracies withdrew from the later UFC events. >>>

    ...To go fight in pride, a more prestigous event with more skilled opponents, which they are still doing. They may not be undefeated but they are still a huge force to be reckoned with in NHB.
    Quote:
    We can safely assume that by that time, Northern Hemisphere fighters had begun to watch tapes, study their moves to discover ways to counter what had at first flummoxed them. >>>>

    Translation: You either learn how to grapple, or you get the hell out of the cage.
    Quote:
    A point proven by the fact that later UFC champs had names like Shamrock and Severson.>>>

    First of all it's dan SEVERN. Not SEVERSON.

    Second, they are both experienced grapplers.

    Third, neither has ever beaten a gracie.
    Quote:
    In short, both the shock -- and the new -- had worn off and people once again remembered that grappling was an issue to be dealt with. >>>

    Damn straight. "Dealt with" as in "Learned how to do".
    Quote:
    This is not to disparage the Gracies, they are fine athletes and, in their time, they ruled the ring. >>>

    They still fight NHB. And I bet helio's great grandsons could kick your ass.
    Quote:
    But, as they introduced a new and evolutionary change to sports fighting, other people have continued to evolve and introduce new developments -- including ways to counter their changes. Thus is the cycle of the martial arts, they is always changing and evolving to meet "new" influences. >>>

    Translation: They learned how to grapple and groundfight.
    Quote:
    It is never static, it is always changing. And sometimes what is "new" is something that is actually old, but left behind because people had found a counter way back then. Often until the counter is "rediscovered" this will create the latest fad in martial arts training. >>>

    Translation: I know nothing about taoism, but let me try to sound like bruce lee for a second here.

    Quote:
    Where doesn't submission fighting work?
    While it is important to know how to keep your head when you go to the ground, let's start by saying that if groundfighting was all that effective, armies would lie down when they fought. >>>

    This has got to be one of the most assinine statements ever published.

    First of all a STR33TFIGHT is not a BATTLEFIELD. Soldiers SHOOT EACH OTHER. They don't slug it out. THEY USE GUNS.

    Second of all, any grunt or jarhead can tell you they spend plenty of time crawling on their bellies.
    Quote:
    As a matter of fact, they wouldn't carry weapons, instead they'd use submission holds and mounting positions to defeat the other army's soldiers. >>>

    I take it back. THIS is the most assinine statement ever.
    Quote:
    Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally effective as its proponents would claim.*
    >>>

    So, because it's easier to shoot the enemy than to figh him hand to hand that makes grappling innefective? Wouldn't that apply to ALL unarmed martial arts then? Including yours?
    Quote:
    To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).

    1) In a one-on-one confrontation
    2) In an open, but limited, space
    3) On padded, clear surfaces
    4) Without weapons
    5) With rules
    6) When people aren't trying to kill each other
    >>>

    All wrong.
    Quote:
    In otherwords, in a sporting event.

    We can also say that it works under *very* limited conditions in a so-called 'real' fight. But it has to be a very specific kind of confrontation. In fact, it could be termed "a friendly" fight. But you can't rely on an altercation being of this self-limiting, non-destructive type. >>>

    Jargon.
    Quote:
    So let's look at the elements, or more specifically the issues that *will* undermine submission fighting's effectiveness.
    >>>

    Yes, let's.
    Quote:
    Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you don't plan to face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self defense. Seldom will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making at least a token effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring it is a dangerous mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often be in the form of a bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground in a one-on-one contest with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility you are vulnerable to a second attack from above. There is also the issue -- in less reputable locations -- of spectators joining in and kicking you both ... just for the fun of it.>>>


    First of all macyoung makes the false assumption that "grappling" always means "groundfighting".

    Second of all, if onlookers or friends are going to join in, how is striking any more usefull than grappling? You're gonna get stomped either way.

    Third, he doesn't address the knee on stomach position, ideal for keeping a lookout for friends while eliminating the fighting ability of one opponent (which striking doesn't do!)


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  10. Hedgehogey is offline
    Hedgehogey's Avatar

    Tsun-Derrorist

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,330

    Posted On:
    9/21/2004 11:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Continued:

    Fourth he doesn't address another advantage of grappling when you're being jumped: Hostage taking.

    Fifth he assumes that all grapplers will immediately go to the ground, rather than asess the situation and determine wether it's appropriate

    Sixth, He doesn't address the fact that a joint lock will put an opponent IMMEDIATELY and permanently out of commision.

    Seventh he doesn't address the issue of standing submissions.
    Quote:
    In a not so open space, e.g. furniture, curbs and other people - While the floor work itself may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects such as tables, chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you fall onto them -- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you there. >>>

    Wrong. Furniture and closed in space is good for grappling. See we're not gonna be the ones falling. With grappling you can drive your opponent INTO the obstacles.

    Striking, however (besides elbows and knees), is much harder to do in an enclosed space.
    Quote:
    In a truly open space - Since "grappling" made it's name in the UFC, we need to look at the circumstances of that event. You will see in many of the take downs that the "victim" had run out of room when it came to backing up. He was trapped against the "ropes." It's amazing how hard it is to catch someone, much less take them down, who has lots of room to backpedal or dodge.
    >>>

    So which is it, macyoung? Closed space or open space? Is there furniture and obstacles there or not?
    Quote:
    Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground" techniques are designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom do these conditions exist outside the dojo. >>>

    We WANT asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc.

    Because when we shoot a double leg it's our OPPONENT who has his face in it.
    Quote:
    A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a shattered bones.
    >>>

    I'll leave this to the judoka.

    Quote:
    Hitting concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful -- often fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea," but that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter might not let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem as his. >>>

    I don't care if he's a "cagey fighter". If he can't grapple, he goes down.

    Quote:
    Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on. While you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on the floor of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone tackles you and you run into another person or tip over a table, those items can and will be knocked to the ground at the same speed as you. >>>

    See my closed in space commentary.

    Quote:
    Without weapons - This is even more dangerous misconception than assuming that you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play, it is no longer fighting, it's combat. >>>

    More sppppoooooookiiiineeeessss.

    Quote:
    The ground is the absolute *last* place you want to be with an armed opponent. Under those circumstances, all your so-called "advantage" turns against you because you cannot escape or avoid a weapon attack fast enough when you are on the ground. >>>

    Actually a high top mount, with your knees in his pits, is the best place to be with an armed opponent (assuming you can't run). From there you have his arms totally controlled, making it very hard for him to pull a weapon.

    Secondly any weapon defense worth it's salt relies on some grappling, seeing as you must CONTROL THE WEAPON HAND.

    Thirdly for an example of grappling's effectiveness when both sticks and knives are employed, one need only look to the dog brothers.

    Quote:
    Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or more specifically "no holds barred," many of the more nasty and brutal moves were banned. >>>

    Wrong. For the first few UFCs there truly were no rules (although you could be fined for one or two things), and there are still competitions that ban two, one or no techniques. The later introduction of rules is the fault of ignorant congressmen.

    Quote:
    Until you have endured these moves, it is easy to assume that you can "tough them out." Experience proves differently. Many of these techniques are so savage that people don't believe others would stoop so low -- and are therefore unprepared to handle them. This utterly undermines the assertion of many grapplers that "Well, we can do them too!" >>>


    We can. We can do them better than you. The man in the SUPERIOR position has the option to bite or not.
    Not the guy getting his face pounded from under knee on belly.

    Quote:
    It isn't a matter of doing it "too" it is a matter of who does it first -- as many of these moves are fight stoppers. >>>

    I have scads of video evidence of people trying to use such "deadly" moves which proves you very wrong.

    Quote:
    Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood as "dominating" your opponent. >>>

    Also "humiliating", "putting into a position of total helplessness" and occasionally "making you my prison wife".

    Quote:
    It is used to subdue and force him to submit. In terms of "fighting" hat is a social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying to prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to kill him before he kills you. >>>

    Macyoung seems entirely ignorant of the fact that a submission taken all the way will break a bone or put you to sleep.

    Quote:
    There are severe psychological differences in intent. And you fight totally differently. A fight with a drunken friend that you are trying to control (or prove he is out of line) is not the same as some evil ******* coming at you with intent to kill you. The same standards apply to the difference between fighting and self-defense. >>>

    What this has to do with grappling, i'm not sure

    Quote:
    If you know where groundfighting is effective, you can then deduce where it isn't safe -- and why. >>>

    Go fight a grappler, macyoung.

    Return to top of page

    Quote:
    Don't fight his fight
    Staying in a ground fight with a grappler is guaranteed to get your ass kicked.
    >>>

    Finally, he gets SOMETHING right. But remove "ground".

    Quote:
    It is where his fighting style is designed to work best. He has the home field advantage, and all the moves that will trap you. On top of that most "grapplers" are in mighty fine physical condition. >>>

    You know it.

    Quote:
    The longer you stay on the ground with a grappler, the more chances you give him to use these tactical advantage against you.

    This is where my first two rules regarding grappling come into effect.

    If you couldn't stop or avoid the rush, you weren't in control of your long-range weapons. Lack of control can be directly traced to a lack of understanding about those very tools. You didn't control the range, nor did you understand those things that could have saved you from being taken down (structure and mobility). These elements while critical in a real fight, are not needed or understood in sport fighting -- where a ref will separate you if you clinch. >>>

    Translation: I can suggest some vague "principles" but no actual counters to a double leg, seeing as I don't know any.

    Quote:
    But those issues are a massive can of worms and is beyond the scope of this Web site. What I can say is, most often, the error wasn't in what you did per se, but rather in your training. If your instructor doesn't know it, there is no way he could teach you. >>>

    More specifically in your training under a charlatan like marc macyoung.

    Quote:
    What I can tell you, is that the second rule applies in spades. You need to get out of the grappler's preferred range. Even if the person you are fighting is not a grappler, the "get-up" rule still applies due to danger from his friends and vicious on-lookers. >>>

    So marc, tell us how to escape mount.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
Page 1 of 3 1 23 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.