Thread: Those wacky martial artists...
11/17/2002 11:03pm, #251
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- Oct 2002
A better question would be how you percieve your instructor as a total human being.
11/18/2002 12:02am, #252
Kungfoolss's expert analysis:
'Why a black belt is Worthless nowadays..'
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=testing12345703&msg=361.1Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
11/18/2002 8:01am, #253
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- Aug 2002
"So which are they, general movements, or interpretation? Because I've yet to see a fighter who doesn't use those movements. Giving something a name is not interpretation, it's just a name."
Someone gave that name to a movement as part of an interpretation, the art/style/system. Perhaps, when it was first used, it was merely part of a language. Yet, fast forward a few hundred years and you have someone still using those words, even though they are not part of their language. Why? What purpose do they serve? What words do not have a corresponding term or phrase in your language?
Words that have no match are usually philosophical identifiers or ritualistic terms. They aren't essential to the art, they are mere decorative items. In and of itself, it isn't harmful, but such traditions contribute to the creation of a subculture which can be easily abused.
"No, my comments reflect that I am familiar with the fighting info of my art, and you are not except where it resembles what you have learned. Discussion is not evidence."
You are familiar with your art, perhaps, but your art must yield to the same set of natural laws that every art/system must submit to, no matter how 'old' or 'effective' the art is. Those laws, the fundamental principles, are the true reference, not tradition or the pseudo-science of any art, whether it refers to chi or spiritual qualities. Looking at your posts, I see a tendency to ridicule the idea of seeking to work directly with those principles, rather than any tradition. Whether the hostility is borne of negative experiences with individuals or a bias created by personal or professional desires, is unknown.
Is it evidence? It shows that years in your art have not given you appreciation of the fundamental principles, the natural laws discovered (sometimes REdiscovered) by man through scientific analysis and, on occassion, accident. You can thank your secular education for any appreciation of them. If traditional arts were not ignorant, then there would be no need for medical analysis of why 'safe' techniques have led to fatalities. If traditional arts were not ignorant, then we would see perfect, complete arts, whose techniques are unbeatable.
"Rhythm IS NOT interpretation, but again, a name for something. Rhythm exists outside of the contexts of martial arts, and does not relate to movement, but timing, which is again, a name, not an interpretation, a name for an actual thing, not an interpretation."
Rhythm is interpretation of time corresponding with movement. You see, when martial arts refers to rhythm, it is not refering to the time/phase relationship of waves at the atomic level, but the physical perception of time corresponding with action. Techniques learned by rote tend to follow some rhythm. People create their own rhythm, it is an interpretation... an artificial construct.
Incidently, "broken rhythm" acknowledges this by stating that one should discern an opponent's rhythm and attack out of phase with the opponent, or create a rhythm that an opponent will follow in adaption and then break it. If it wasn't an artificial construct, then it couldn't be broken.
Not intentionally focussing on the sport versions, merely pointing out that western arts have their influences that do not contribute to the fighting aspects of them. By the way, fencers in duels did not necessarily keep that hand back, but preferred to have it forward and armed.
Hand positions were reflective of schools of thought, the individual's armament, and the particular activity being conducted at the time. Also, I'd point out that a duel is social confrontation, a formal argument. As such, the rules of said engagements are of great importance and not necessarily reflective of military practices or of other duels. Once again, context is of importance.
A duelist who followed the same school of thought as Marozzo, might have his hand tucked behind his back, in contrast with one that thought as Vigianni. Even then, the execution of particular techniques might cause certain 'ancillary' movements to occur. A very deep thrust with a lunge, demands balance. As such the opposite arm is typically 'thrown back' to compensate for the forward motion. This aids in the gaining of penetration, something that might literally mean the difference between life and death. Understanding of biomechanics in combat would have told you this, without having to refer to some fencing book. So, "by the way", you apparently have a very limited understanding....
In sporting affairs, the narrow fencing strip means that linear body movement, rather than circular or elliptical, is used. Lateral balance isn't as importance and as such, the lunge becomes even more important. As such, a fencer has further reason to place his arm behind him to both avoid providing additional clues to an opponent and to facilitate the usage of lunges.
"And why do you intentionally work to demonize any influences of the east on their fighting styles that don't directly tie with fighting(while generally failing to actually seem to define those influences in a hyperbolistic manner) while trying desparately to shelter the western arts from the same scrutiny? After all, which ancient western fighting arts are left? The sportive ones. There is no continuous tradition of old school fencing or boxing or what have you. Only the sport ones made it to today."
Demonize Eastern influences? At best, tradition, in the form of terms, are unnecessary trappings that do not benefit the practitioner. They merely aid in perpetuating an interpretation. At worst, the 'traditional' retention of philosophical aspects creates a sub-culture. That sub-culture, as evidenced by news posts by Kungfoolss, attracks a great deal of dysfunctional people, in addition to those simply seeking a means of self-defense, who are inclined to take advantage of the environment and mentality of practitioners who take such traditions to heart.
Am I sheltering Western martial arts? If what you say is true, then the 'Western' arts are long dead, obliviated by the social behaviour of 'Western' societies. Now, I have certainly made comments regarding the problems with BOTH 'Western' and 'Eastern' arts. Namely, I've stated that there is a tendency to discard 'obsolete' weapons (such as Western martial arts) as technology progresses except as 'defanged' sports. There is also a desire in 'civilized', 'progressed' Western society to abandon "messy" means of achieving an end. It was evident in the gradual migration from cut and thrust weapons to mere thrusting weapons, to the outlawing the usage of fists and feet in favor of pistols. It is evident now in the creation of "no-holds-barred" events that are anything but that.
In reality, the Western martial arts are barely kept alive by practitioners who both practice the arts with the intended 'malice' and who research the data left behind by various writers. It is one part academic and one part combative. Certainly, many also practice the sporting aspects, as well, thus adding athleticism to the mix. In all, the trappings are usually social expressions made before or after a 'duel', mock combat, or sporting event. Otherwise, only the modern requirements of society, such as a handshake or wave, are required. In other words, unspiritual, unphilosophical, and almost minimalistic.
"However, again, you suggest that ALL asian influences on their fighting styles are distractions from fighting, even proffessional terminology."
Simply put, if something isn't necessary for combat, then what is it doing in a martial art? It is there for reasons outside the requirement of fighting. Whether as an act of homage, preservation of culture, or perpetuation of religion/philosophy, such traditions are reflective of something other than skill suitable for war.
"I'm avoiding nothing, because you have failed to bring up one such influence that you can universally apply to all the traditional arts, period. Which means that your whole argument depends on phrasing and hyperbole. You have not been able to explain the philosophical weakness of the actual traditional chinese phrases I've put forward, instead putting up your 'red herring' of influences that you somehow cannot name, but are in my art simply because I had the gall to argue the point with you. Again, tell me about my art, since you seem to know so much about it, despite the fact that you've undoubtedly never seen it. Tell me the influences that detract from its ability to function in a fight environment. Or admit that you know nothing about it. One or the other."
You don't understand. My objective is not that of taking an entire art and removing nonsense. That would be a worthy goal of those who are dedicated practitioners of such arts. Each person can look at their art and see for themselves what is useless. Whether it is the cultural misplacement of bowing, the pseudo-scientific theories, or such, there are trappings that can be discarded. Just as few arts share the same strengths, few have identical weaknesses. Naming a common fault, aside from an ignorance of the fundamental principles, is unnecessary.
"And if it doesn't matter whether an asian or a westerner came up with it, why the resistance to learning the asian terms if they are superior? With specific examples of your reasoning, please."
Once more, you are missing the point. Such terms are never superior. Based upon faulty understanding, pseudo-sciences are merely part of the interpretation. They do not take precedence over the laws of nature, thus they are always inferior.
"Actually, very unscientific of you. You missed the obvious, and the only clear answer. The bjj stylist is best at his or her range because that is the range he or she trains for first and foremost. As such, trial and error THEN shows what works in the most situations, and teaching helps shorten the period during which trial and error is in use by taking advantage of others trial and error."
I answered the way that I did because their methodology is not scientific. If I take a finite object, I can eventually grasp its finite measurements. It does not mean that I have an true understanding of all similar objects. Ranges, as used in martial arts, are similar. Arts that specialize in certain ranges, gather techniques that 'worked' for individuals, not because they are derived from scientific analysis. Martial arts, with few (if any) exceptions, are based upon the shared experiences of its practitioners, rather an actual understanding of principal truths. Anyone can find an 'answer' through trial and error, but that's not the same as understanding a universal truth or its derivative theories.
"As for fundamental principles, hogwash. Life is not made up of what works, and what doesn't, but what can be made to work at that time, and what cannot at that time. To throw away a few hundred years of research is against human nature. The research is oftentimes valid, and, despite your hyperbole, the vast majority of styles still exist with all of their pertinent fighting methodologies."
If you wish to believe that there are no fundamental principles, universal truths, then you are welcome to do so. Yet, truths exist and our technological advances are to due to them, not traditional 'research' or simple trial-and-error. When research is wrong, you should find out why it is wrong and avoid making the same mistake. You do not go on repeating the mistake in fear of discarding several life-times of work.
Regarding universal truths...
"You say that this triangle is naught but a social construction?"
"Yes, I do."
"Is this big rock here, likewise a social construction?"
"I would have to say that it is."
"Then may I throw this nonexistent rock at your head?"
Edited by - Sheol on November 18 2002 07:15:13
11/19/2002 5:40am, #254
The Star Democrat
Adams pleads guilty
By: KONRAD SUROWIEC, Staff Writer November 17, 2002
CENTREVILLE - A Centreville man charged with molesting four young girls entered a guilty plea in circuit court. William E. "Todd" Adams, 22, pleaded guilty Friday to one count each of second-degree sex offense and child abuse. Judge John W. Sause Jr. said there was a strong factual basis to accept the plea. He ordered a pre-sentence investigation.
By pleading guilty, Adams waived his right to a trial. In return for the guilty plea, the state will dismiss 29 counts against Adams and also dismiss a case against him pending in district court. Adams was arrested in June on sex offense and child abuse charges after Maryland State Police investigated a report that a girl had been molested by her martial arts instructor. Adams had been an instructor at Martial Arts America in Stevensville.
Police said Adams molested four girls, ages 5 to 8, who were students at the martial arts school. The alleged incidents occurred in Adams' truck in the parking lot of Martial Arts America and in three of the girls' homes. Adams was charged with six counts of child abuse, four counts of second-degree sex offense, seven counts of third-degree sex offense, seven counts of fourth-degree sex offense and seven counts of second-degree assault.
Under sentencing guidelines, the maximum prison sentence is 20 years for second-degree sex offense and 15 years for child abuse. During an Oct. 11 hearing in circuit court, Judge Sause denied a motion by defense attorney Thomas G. Ross to suppress statements Adams made to a state trooper and a social worker following his arrest in June.
Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists and the Dominate Prevailing Force in the martial arts political arena
http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/startKungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
11/20/2002 9:13pm, #255
In Riverside, the man dubbed the "Ninja murderer" tried to escape from the courtroom during the penalty phase of his trial, and was injured in the attempt. Sheriff's officials and prosecutors declined comment because of judge-imposed gag order. An attorney in Riverside County Superior Court during Thursday's attempted escape of David Lynn Scott III gave an account of the incident on the 5th floor of the courthouse. The jury was not in the room during the escape attempt.
Scott, 26, was convicted Jan. 8 of 15 counts of murder, rape and other charges stemming from a string of crimes that spanned 4 months beginning Sept. 1992. Special circumstances of rape and burglary in the killing of Brenda Gail Kenny make him eligible for the death penalty. In at least 1 of the crimes, he was wearing a black garb similar to a Ninja constume and carried a sword.Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
11/22/2002 7:40am, #256
WEST PALM BEACH -- A suburban Boca Raton karate instructor charged in a sex case pleaded guilty in his best interest Thursday to battery on a child. In exchange, Richard R. Tillotson, 42, was sentenced to two years' probation and a finding of guilt was withheld. Tillotson taught the victim at his business, T's Kenpo Karate School, since she was 10, Palm Beach County sheriff's officials said. The victim told deputies that a sexual relationship began when she was 15. A prosecutor was unavailable to comment on the plea deal.
Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists and the Dominate Prevailing Force in the martial arts political arena
11/22/2002 1:29pm, #257
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- Oct 2002
HAWAII - A lone nut on a rabid crusade against martial arts has admitted his addiction to internet search engines.
11/22/2002 2:10pm, #258
Some of that stuff is fucking sick man, real sick.
I couldn't spend my time searching for stuff like that, it's ill.
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11/22/2002 6:19pm, #259
Published Friday, November 22, 2002
Monday around 12:30 p.m., police responded to a breach of peace reported at the corner of Broadway and Tower Parkway, Patten said. Two men were walking down the sidewalk when a man got in their way and obstructed their path, police said. Aaron Strong, 23, of New Haven, said he knew kung-fu, and chased the two men after they passed him, Patten said. Strong gave no reason for his actions, police said.
Strong was arrested for breach of peace in the second degree.
11/22/2002 6:49pm, #260