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  1. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2003 10:29pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds fairly impressive - I'm reseraching into it a little, but first I wanted to ask some question, esepcially to people like Asia etc:


    What's The sparring like: is there any? How do you practise the moves? are there any tornamnets?
    I've seen that "Crane"/martial arts site, would would like to know more, also probabaly from other websites.

    Supposed to be "as good as" MT in terms of skill and moves: not many, if any TMAs really impress more to be honest, so I'm seeing if this one will/does, especially as a few of the members of this forum (like Asia) speak so fondly of it or try to convince other of it;s effectiveness when speaking of it :)


    Any information would be appreciated.

    Please no information of the weapons techniques, just on the hand to hand combat aspect of the Martial Art.






    Edited by - Blade Windu on January 11 2003 21:33:04
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  2. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 12:34am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >What's The sparring like: is there any?

    Depends on the school and style of BAJI (there is more than one) some do it light, mosty wushu type schools, some so it hard.

    >How do you practise the moves?

    Like any other. You do them over and over again.
    You spend most of the time in conditioning. A good teacher may have you spend three months practicing one basic sequence so getting results does take time.

    >are there any tornamnets?

    None that I know of outside of Wushu competitions. If you see BAJI in Wushu tournament the are more than likely doing new Competition form because the original forms were considered UGLY.

    >Supposed to be "as good as" MT in terms of skill and moves

    I've never said this! I would have said BETTER THAN <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

    Seriously the moves are not that complicated but its key, like MT, lies in conditioning.

    >especially as a few of the members of this forum (like Asia) speak so fondly of it or try to convince other of it;s effectiveness when speaking of it :)

    CONVINCE? Nay I make puny mortal BOW DOWN TO MY DARK POWER!!!!!!

    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  3. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 12:43am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From the Cyberkwoon database (Funny how BAJI material is the most viewed resoure on CK)


    Ba Ji Quan
    by Kai Yu

    General Introduction to Ba Ji
    Ba ji is an about three-hundred-year-old Gong-Fu style with an impressive and glorious history. Since Yung Zheng times (Yung Zheng, a early emperor of Qing Dynasty), almost every emperor during the
    Qing Dynasty studied Ba Ji and employed Ba Ji practitioners as his bodyguards or as trainers for his high-level military officers. Emperor Qian Lung said: "For peace and soft style, we have Tai Chi, but for fighting and conquesting, we have Ba Ji Ba Ji earns its high reputation in China because of its violent, sudden release of explosive power combined with its simple, yet very efficient techniques. Today this style is still very popular in north China, especially among the young people. Since traditional training is very hard and takes diligent practice, and also because many traditional Chinese Kung Fu masters are often very cautious with whom they share their knowledge, fewer and fewer people can obtain such a high level of competency. Consequently, fewer people have the opportunity to learn the original traditional forms and to obtain a high level of skill. In present times, it is sometime difficult to differentiate between Ba Ji and other styles such as Long Fist when modern players practice these sets. Since the end of the cultural revolution in China, one may be able to find a few people who have made efforts to retrace and keep the original Ba Ji trainings that previously had been delivered generation by generation.

    The Origin of Ba Ji
    Several different stories exist about the originator of Ba Ji, Zhung Wu. There even exist several versions of the Quan Pu( the secret book of each style that is handed down generation by generation), The original "Quan Pu"(delivered by a grandmaster from "Ba Ji Village" who serve the last emperor, Pu Yi, as his bodyguard and Sifu) recorded a very detailed story. According to this account, Wu was born in the Shangtong Province of China to a rich family. Since childhood, he had a great interest in Kung Fu and tried to learn from every famous great master during that time. After a number of years of studying and training, he achieved a very high level of Kung Fu and had great difficulty finding a better teacher to improve his Kung Fu. So, he announced that if someone could beat him and show something special, he would give his property to that person and would become his student. One day, a couple came in and showed something very special. Wu thought he found the right people and became their student. During a routine visit to the couple while the husband was away, the man's wife wanted to test Wu's Kung Fu. During the confrontation, the woman threw Wu to the ground with only one action. The woman felt very sorry for Wu because her husband had taught Wu for twenty years, yet Wu's Kung Fu was still not good enough. Then, the woman shown Wu some secret things. The next day, when the man returned and saw Wu's practice, he was surprised. He asked his wife about Wu and was told what happened. The man said that they no longer had anything to teach Wu, for his Kung Fu was now better than theirs. Then, the couple disappeared in silence. Later, Wu went to the famous Shaolin Temple for three years to study Qi Kung from the chief monk. After he left Shaolin Temple, Wu happened to meet another monk, Kui-Yuan Lai, and learned the spear technique from him for another three years. Then, he worked as a transportation-guard. He traveled around the country and met no competitor. Some time later, he went to Peking and showed his Ba Ji and spear . His special Kung Fu surprised everybody including the Emperor and earned his reputation as "Magic Spear Wu". In his later life, he stayed in Meng Chun with his daughter, Wu Rong, and his first student, Wu Yung who came from Meng Chun, and taught Ba Ji there. Today people call Meng Chun the Ba Ji Village.

    Ba Ji Training
    In the original Ba Ji system, there were not as many routines or forms as found today. Many new Ba Ji students, who had previously become accomplished in other styles, brought many additional routines to
    present day Ba Ji. The original forms (excluding the weapons forms): Jin Gang Ba Shi (gold-steal eight forms), Ba Ji Xiao Jia (Ba Ji Short Form), Ba Ji(Ba Ji Long form), Ba Ji Two Person Routine(application),
    and Liou Da Kai(six big open). Ba Ji training includes spirit training, external body build-up, internal Qi
    Gung training and technique training. The spirit training develops eight different kinds of spirits. The external movement and technique training teaches to move like eight different kind of animals and
    builds eight different kinds of skills. And the Qi Gung training combined with spirit training enables people to release the special explosive Ba Ji power.

    The training procedure of Ba Ji system includes three stages. The first stage includes: (a)Zhang Zhuang(stance) or Di Pen Bu; (b) Jin Gang Ba Shi and; (c) Ba Ji Xiao Jia. The stance, which helps to build leg strength, strengthen the spirit, and sink the Qi, is the first and the most difficult training for the Ba Ji students. Jin Gang Ba Shi is used to develop Ba Ji power. Ba Ji Xiao Jia is for the training of body movement, basic techniques and body built-up. The first stage usually takes one to three years. After finishing the first stage, it can be said that the Ba Ji student has a small completion.

    The second stage includes: Ba Ji, Ba Ji Two People Routine, and Liou Da Ka. All of them are for the training of Body's internal and external movement and technique. This stage takes three more
    years. After this stage, one's external strength, internal feeling, and Qi Gung power should be great.

    The final stage is dedicated to the internal training. It includes: Xu Xi Gung ( Qi Gung, number counting style to enhance the inside-body), Nei Dong Gung (Qi Gung, internal movement style, for feeling and
    health) and Kou Qi Gung (Qi Gung, mouth gas style for power). It is believed that all these Qi Gung styles originated from Shaolin Temple. No person can claim that he has completed the highest level. But there is a common saying: "After ten years of serious training, people can claim to have a big completion."

    4. Ba Ji Principles and Theory
    Ba Ji theory is quite simple. Imagine a situation in which there are four people holding your arms and your legs to the ground with a fifth person threatening to cut your arm off. You are scared. You forget
    everything and try to escape from the four people. At this moment, even though you are a normal person, you may somehow be able to show a great power and successfully escape from the four people's control. But later, when asked to show this power again, you cannot do so. Why? In the Ba Ji theory, it is believed that before you are born, you have a natural power attached to your body, but after birth, you are taught how to walk, how to use your hand, and how to enhance your muscle. As a result, you develop the learned muscular power and forget the natural one. Later in daily life, when you need to use your power, you naturally do it by using the learned way. But sometimes when you have an empty mind or a crazy mind, you forget the learned way and the natural power may readily surface. This power is one of the major treasures of Ba Ji. From this point of view, the first stage of training in Ba Ji system transforms the learned power to the natural one thus the first stage is most important in the Ba Ji training system.

    (In this centry, almost all the top chinese goveners are guarded by Ba Ji practitioners)

    Basic Power and Punching Technique
    Ba Ji power, in the traditional group, is called Ba Ji San Chui Li, or three step power, or a power with three sources. The first is the shoulder power. The second is the waist springing power. And the third
    is the stamping and dropping power. If somebody can use the internal Qi to coordinate these three sources to release power in a moment, the person will be great and any simple action will be extremely explosive
    and powerful enough to cause a big damage to an enemy. The people who seriously want to learn this magic power should try to find a real traditional Ba Ji master. After three years of serious training with a
    qualified teacher, one should expect to obtain some of this power. But one should be aware that there is no short-cut way to get this power. How good one's power is depends on how hard and how much he trains in the correct way. Punching is a big attack weapon for empty hand competition. But in the modern Kung Fu world, it seems that not many people can claim that a single punch is powerful and explosive enough to cause serious internal injury and kill people. if a person wishes to develop his punching skills, he should pay attention to the following major points translated from a Chinese poem common to the traditional Kung Fu world:

    (1) Make the movement of the three sections of your body clear;
    (2) The activities of the four internal and external ends of your body should start and stop at the same moment;
    (3) Tie your five elements;
    (4) Keep the six kinds of human desires away from your mind.

    The human body can be divided into three big sections and three small sections. The first major point means that when you punch, you should know the order of the movements among the three sections. The second point means that you should cooperate your feet and hands, and your mind, Spirit, and Blood into a union. Any movement should be your whole body's cooperated movement. The third point means that you should coordinate the muscles in your body to release the power. The fourth point means to clean and concentrate your mind onto one point --- your target --- so that you can recall the natural power. If you correctly follow these four points, or even if you can have some understanding of them, your punching will be very special. This punching technique usually does not take a long time to master for experienced students if they follow correct way, commonly one or two months. But if someone goes about it incorrectly, the consequence will be quite different. Tenseness and relaxation are two opposite direction in the martial art practice. The deepest relaxation can be achieved from the tensest practice and the sharpest momentary tenseness can only be achieved from the deepest relaxation. Therefore any type of explosive
    power release can only be achieved from some level of relaxation. The best stylist should have both the deepest relaxation and sharpest momentary tenseness. When talking at this level,
    the regular techniques can be ignored. Real KUNG FU in martial art sense means the suddently released power, the sensitivity of the body, and durability, not some pieces of superior techniques. The level of Kung Fu can never be topped. How high one's Kung Fu level is can be illustrated from his one moment. Nothing can be hided. The one with higher level of Kung Fu can usually learns all kind of new techniques quicker and performs them better (even better than the ones who teach the techniques).

    The Characteristics of Ba Ji
    In last two century, almost all the top Chinese governers selected Ba Ji masters as their body
    guard. You may wonder why this style is so special. Ba Ji is a very effective style not because it has
    some supperior techniques. All the Ba Ji techniques are very simple, straight forward and solid. As an classical Ba Ji grappling technique, a Ba Ji practitioner can momentarily break the opponent arm by only grabe his arm and suddenly snap the whole body.

    The major purpose of Ba Ji training is to develop the ultimate snapping power. After gaining this type
    of power, some very efficient techniques can be performed or applied. Therefore, Ba Ji power constitutes
    the foundation of Ba Ji system. Without this power, Baji techniques make no differences (or even worse)
    from other styles. The power is very violent and sharply released. A top Ba Ji master can suddenly move out of the way of a bullet from a close range handgun(this level is not very usual, so please don't try this on any BaJi practitioners).

    Ba Ji, like many other Kung Fu styles, is a complete system. Based on the core power, many striking, grappling, and throwing techniques are developed.

    1. A typical Ba Ji striking technique is: walk in, drop body by stampping, suddenly snap the whole body when touching the target. Theoretically, this strike can generate an unlimited force. A Ba Ji practitioner can easily break his own arm if not destroying the target. About 70 years ago, grandmaster Li, Suwen (a top martial artist at that time in China) and his forth student Huo, Diange(the last emperor's body Guard) seriously wounded many their challengers by using this technique. (Those fights last usually less than one second). Other striking techniques are designed for close range fight.

    2. Ba Ji grappling techniques are also simple. Inside a human body, there are many leverages inter connected by some joints. The joints can move in certain ranges. Any movement out of the ranges may break the joints. In Ba Ji offensive grappling, a practitioner can lock the opponent's certain leverage with the two sides of his body and suddenly snap the whole body to break the leverage. In the defensive grappling, if one side of the body is locked, a practitioner can put the other side of his body on the opponent and snap to forcibly escape from the lock. Ba Ji grappling techniques consists of Body Twine (Da Chan) and Arm Lock (Xiao Chan)

    3. Throwing Techniques, in other word, low body striking, are based on the Ba Ji foot work. A typical Ba Ji throwing technique is leg lock and body snap throw. Throwing is a fight for balence. The solid foot work and rotative body make these Ba Ji techniques very special.

    The Power developed in Ba Ji exercise could be also very helpful to do better jobs in all other martial art style.


    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. I Give BJJs is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 1:29am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >Supposed to be "as good as" MT in terms of skill and moves

    I've never said this! I would have said BETTER THAN
    LOL @ Gaysia......you TMAs are sooooooo adorable
  5. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 1:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Adorable my ass. I'm one sexy bitch! Yeah baby!!!

    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 12:59pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "A top Ba Ji master can suddenly move out of the way of a bullet from a close range handgun(this level is not very usual, so please don't try this on any BaJi practitioners). "
    Hmm, everthing else in the article seems fairly belivable. Thanks for the info.

    Do u have any Video demstrations (on the internet) obviously with links to show? I don't mean of the Wushu forms either - demostrations of the moves by a master. I would much prefer to see something with BAJI in sparring, but demonstartions of the moves would be good too. thx.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  7. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 1:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't believe that part either. I did some digging and found ONE reference to such a feat but didn't give any particualrs, like how close was the guy, what kind of weapon was used, etc. I mean hell anyone has a good chance of dodging a bullet if the guys 100m away. So until I get accurate info this will be just a TALE.


    As for video, etc. Do you still have an account on Cyberkwoon? There are BAJI videos and Technique application on the site.

    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 2:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah i do, ok thanks.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  9. Nihilanthic is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 3:00pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd like to see differentiation between the hard forward movements coupled with striking (sounds like good footwork to me, frankly) and this mystical garbage...

    It seems to be about using your bodyweight moving forwards, good strong conditioning, and explosive movement. Almost like the kung fu of plyometrics...

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  10. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 6:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    3 years...and then 3 more years...and "10 years you can have a big completion."?

    Ummm...any MT practitioners care to estimate how long it takes to achieve "a big completion" with MT? Or boxing? etc.?

    Geez, this still sounds like mystic CRAP. I'm sure the techniques are effective, but you can't tell me they take 10 years to learn.

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
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