MA: Sport vs. Self Defence

**Mayhem** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 5:28am

I would like to know peoples opinions on how effective the various styles people do, purely in terms of self defense. After 12 years of training I quit Muay Thai to try something else. I was immediately made aware that while devastating in a stand-up fight against one person, Muay Thai has NO groin defence, NO weapon defence and does not teach how to defend against multiple opponents.

Many of the more popular M Arts are heavily foccused on the Sport aspect of fighting, whereby you KNOW you are going to fight ONE person in a semi-confined space.

Take into account when replying that MOST of the people you may have to fight on the street will NOT have several years training in a fighting art, (it is my own personal opinion that TKD CAN be used effectively to defend youself against someone who has not been trained to fight.)

**Hannibal** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 5:39am

Wepons defence ? Multiple attackers defence ? No martial art can account for these situations realistically. If your surrounded by guys with knives and baseball bats don't even bother using martial arts, what you need is a gun.

Muay Thai is a fantastic striking art. The best (next to Kyokushin of coarse) and in my opinion it would be very useful for self defense. You have had 12 years of Muay Thai. Thats striking covered. The obvious answer is to try a grappling art. Judo, BJJ or Wrestling. Pick one and train.
Between a good striking and grappling art you've got the fight game covered.

**Mayhem** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 5:49am

OK, thanks for the advice, I may even take it ;) Just to claify my question. "How effective would something like BJJ be against 2 (or 3) oppontents on the streets (NO RULES)?" I am assuming techniques such as armbars and chokes wouldn't be as effective when trying to fend off more than one person.

**Hannibal** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 5:56am

Against 2 or 3 people BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate whatever would not be very effective. If 3 guys come at you and they are not looking to play games, they really wanna hurt you -RUN as fast as you can.

Look at guys like Roy Gracie, Mike Tyson etc now these guys would have trouble handling 3 opponants at once. And they are proffessional fighters. Amongst the best in the world.

How could a club martial artist handle things ? They couldn't. But anyway for multiple attackers your best bet is a striking art. Muay Thai, Kyokushin, boxing I say.

**alex** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 6:55am

im getting fucking sick of this. gun. fu.

**Lights Out** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 7:10am

If three opponents attack you simultaneously, become berserker. Kick and pucnh anything on your way. You´ll probably lose the fight, but they may get hurt enough to think twice before the pick on you again.

Now, seriously, IMHO MA have to deal with man´s limits. I don´t beleive in Ki or secret ninja powers, as almost anybody in this forum. But I feel that some people may think that, with the proper training, MA can make you invincible. I don´t think so. What I think is that proper training (physical, psychological and technical conditioning) can raise your chances to survive (call it win, call it dealing more pusnishment than what you took) a fight. But anybody may lose to anybody. No matter how you skilled you are, once you´re attacked by more than one opponet, you´re screwed up. Have in mind that, unless they are waaaaay weaker and unskilled than you, you´re heading for a beating (even if, finally, you manage to kick their asses).

**Beneath Contempt** · Posted On: 9/11/2004 2:05pm

Originally posted by Mayhem
OK, thanks for the advice, I may even take it ;) Just to claify my question. "How effective would something like BJJ be against 2 (or 3) oppontents on the streets (NO RULES)?" I am assuming techniques such as armbars and chokes wouldn't be as effective when trying to fend off more than one person.

Mayhem: If you've done 12 years of MT, there is no mileage whatsoever in taking Hannibal's advice. He doesn't know anything.

Hannibal: It's Royce Gracie - not Roy, you clown.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 9/12/2004 4:12am

How about instead of asking how effective BJJ is against 2 or 3 people, ask how effective MT is against your drunk buddy, or someone who simply needs to be controlled?

I am constantly harangued by the striking crowd saying that against 2 or more people grappling is useless. Instead of arguing the point, I ask what the strikers options are when dealing with someone who is NOT in need of a KO?

What about the sister in law who attacks your mother at Christmas because she is drunk? What about that crazy fucker at the convenience store who keeps pushing people around, he's like 60 years old but still goin off, what about your pissed off brother in law who is out on the lawn wrecking the neighbors car? ( yeah, all true )

The kind of situations that, if you go balls out 1-2-3 with elbows and knees flying, you are going to regret. The kind of things that seem to happen more often than a 3 on 1 gang attack. Those situational scuffles that often just require you to control someone until they wear themselves out of a frenzy. The kind of conflict that will not require you to KTFO out of someone, more like they need what they call in court 'escalating use of force'.

Because honestly, all those striking arts lack the escalating use of force concept. You go fuckin apeshit on someone who is stealing stuff from a store and you are going to jail. You tackle and pin the guy til the cops arrive you are the good guy. When the cops show up, and they always do, was the altercation life threatening? Was it neccessary to knock this guys teeth out and break two of his ribs? Those are the kind of questions the cops, the lawyers, and the judge will be asking.

That's the beauty of grappling in many instances. The sliding scale of force can be used. And as I mentioned above, not every conflict requires the kind of violence and permanent damage that striking is going to do. Think to yourself as you stand over your unconscious victim with bloody knuckles what the police will think as you try to explain this guys teeth across the street and him coughing up blood. Instead you can say, glad you got here officer - this guy went nuts. I dont know what happened. I just grabbed him in a headlock and waited for you to get here!

I think when the sister in law sobers up, she will probably not hold too many grudges if you took her down and pinned her til she chilled out. Dunno what she would think if you gave her a black eye and a broken nose...

There ya go. There's a new spin on this stupid endless 'what's best' fuckin debate.

**deus ex machina** · Posted On: 9/12/2004 5:18am

Laffs cuz Mayhem is obviously a troll0l3rs!

**Lights Out** · Posted On: 9/12/2004 8:03am

Yrkoon9, nobody on this thread argued againts BJJ or grappling arts.

You´re correct, some times you need to use a different kind of force, like holding someone, but some times, grappling is just not enough if you ask me. I was all about striking arts until recently, when finally I got rid off of my McDojoness nad began crosstraining (kickboxing+BJJ).
IMHO, a Striking art plus a grappling art would suit almost 90% of the people.