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  1. Armparn is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/10/2004 10:53pm


     Style: Juijitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Submitting vs Finishing

    I was wondering what are peoples thoughts on the utility of various submissions for self-defense.

    In particular I am interested in the ability of a practitioner to reliably finish someone with any given submission technique, ie with breakage/dislocation/unconciousness. It is my observation that certain submissions lend themselves more to purely sport or possibly simply restraining applications as opposed to actually destroying limbs and choking people out.

    Some questions that I have for people on the subject that train in submissions:

    1. Do most people tap out due to pain, or because of fear of major injury?

    2. Does anybody here train in submissions either exclusively or peridoically with actually finishing applications in mind(Not just making someone tap)?

    My thoughts, I usually tap out because I can no longer take the pain. That and usually because all my escape attempts have failed and I feel stuck. Recently while training ankle-locks, my instructor said something interesting which actually inspired this thread. He commented that in a certain position it is impossible for your opponent to break your foot even though he has the hold and it will be painful. He added that it was important to know the the difference between simple pain vs pain that ends in breakage.

    Thinking of some fight examples I thought of Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie, where afterwards alot of boards were full of criticisms on Sak's inability to break Roylers arm(Royler was caught in Sak's Kimura but refused to tap even though he was visibly in pain and could not escape). A typical comment went like "He's accustomed to people tapping alot sooner, he doesn't know how how to actually finish people". My question is, could Saku have adjusted his position to in order to gain additional leverage to break Royler's arm, it was just that he never trained to do so? Another fight that came in mind was Crocop vs. Minotauro. I distinctly remember Crocop saying that usually he would never tap, but he could feel his arm breaking and had to tap. Perhaps Minotauro intentionally tried to break Crocops arm as opposed to waiting for the submission, or the armbar position(Inverted) that he was in made breaking possible or at least easier.

    The MMA fighter that comes right to mind when I think of this subject is Frank Mir. Mir, the current UFC heavyweight champion, is now notorious for breaking limbs. He balantly states that submitting and tapping mean nothing to him. He goes straight to destroying limbs. He says this as though the current MMA culture is full of submission guys who just give their opponents time to escape, rather then finishing guys then get the job done as fast as possible.

    Thoughts?
      #1
  2. much love is offline

    MMA Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 12:47am


     Style: Jazzercise

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    chokes and shoulder locks/rips work well

    or pop the knee and the ankle with a heel hook

    and when it's life or death neck cranks can do some real damage

    and I don't tap unless it is to avoid injury
      #2
  3. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 12:53am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Chokes for self defense. Nobody fights when unconscious. However, it has been shown over and over again that a broken or dislocated limb does not guarantee a subdued attacker. Combine adreneline, fear, drugs, and attitude and I won't roll the dice on whether someone is done if I tear their ACL out or pop their elbow.

    Nope. Better to choke them the **** out. If you want/need to apply a break, do it to an unconscious opponent. I can almost gaurantee it will be 100x easier than attempting it against a resisting and conscious attacker.
      #3
  4. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 1:16am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For the same reason people like Royler, Jacare, and a host of others have demonstrated. The will to continue fighting is not removed when someone is injured. As explained above, if given a choice I will always choose to choke someone out over trying to break something.

    I look at self-defense differently than most. It won't be a machismo mano-a-mano ego contest. The only reason you will see me fighting in self-defense is because someone wants to really hurt me, or kill me. In those circumstances 'winning' a fight as you said is not the objective. Surviving the encounter is my objective.

    There are too many instances of whacked out crazy motherfuckers who simply ignore pain and injury, who will continue to fight to the death trying to kill you. Again, this ain't gonna be Johnny Smacktalk who wants to chest to chest me, so I bust out my killa MMA, BJJ, MT training with some flashy submission in an attempt to draw praise from a crowd and be the hero. Nope, I just wanna get the **** outta there. And some crazy whacked out King Kong lookin ************ might still be comin after me with a broken arm, a broken nose, and a torn ACL. He may be limpin along but I would prefer if he were unconscious and harmless.
      #4
  5. deus ex machina is offline
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    ***ned

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 1:33am

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     Style: i

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tim Sylvia.
      #5
  6. knight_errant is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 4:42am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1. Do most people tap out due to pain, or because of fear of major injury?

    2. Does anybody here train in submissions either exclusively or peridoically with actually finishing applications in mind(Not just making someone tap)?
    In my experience of judo, we generally tap before it becomes incredibly painful, for safety reasons.
    In one class I attended, they did self defence drills focused towards finishing applications, such as breaking arms, etc. Unfortunately there wasn't much sparring involved unless you cared to stay on for extra practice. He emphasized asssuming dominant positions rather than specific locks and holds as such.
      #6
  7. 5FingazofDeath is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 4:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/MMA/JKDC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why dont you choke them out, THEN break the arm. That way they cant defend the armlock. :D
      #7
  8. Chris.B is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 7:23pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In sparring...I only use locks that will break something, or at least leave the other oponent, unable to attack. The only time, I would use, a lock, that isn't made to break anything, would be in a school fight. Though that's only for legal reasons.
      #8
  9. mididoctors is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/11/2004 9:05pm


     Style: Derek jones

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    depends who you are fighting... tieing yourself up in some intwined armlock while you apply pressure may not be suitable... a sustained choke 10-30 secs? hmmm what about the other guy?

    if they are determined you are in real **** no matter and fighting multiple opponents you need to crack their morale quickly and turn it around.. if they have it in them to fight then you need some sort of strike and run policy.. mind you they are probably idiots anyway as they would have taken you by surprise anyway..

    if it is some argument over 6 inchs of parking space etc and is some volutary fight yu usually have it won before you hit as you have decided to escalate to a level they are not prepared for mentaly(mind you can judge that wrong)..still if you start on someone you misjudge you only have yourself to blame..

    if it gang on you intimidation they are not really looking for a fight as much as one member is trying to demonstrate kudos to the rest with a climb down... which is self defense from your POV... so you can usually crap yourself and just give off submissive signals and in a sense co-operate with the guy in his bid to raise status in his group.. you may suffer some blows and kicks but just running away generaly gives him what he needs...

    OTOH if you feel a lingering sense of guilt that you have let yourself dwn... a sudden "pang" of discomfort remembering the fear you experienced and your response

    you can turn it upside down and take them all on in which case you have them fighting each other as group dynamics comes into play.. they expect each other to stand up to the mark.... bloody risky but only idiots go in for this level of stupidity...idiots with weapons maybe.

    but you could be talking about 5 lads out on the town in their motor giving you lip out of the car window or something similar so if you want to have ago its usually not to dangerous.... still dangerous game that fighting thing

    Personnely I dislike going to the ground in a fight... I know this runs counter to a lot of the current fashion in MMA and the obvious effectivness of it in K1 MMA UFC etc etc etc... it is rare to fight one on one in the street even if there is at first glance just you and him. even bystanders can intervine and hinder you.... never assume you just have the one opponent... matchup school yard situations and the like differ I guess but really someone is likley to get pulled off before the cracking and popping starts.. or we should hope so.

    OTOOH

    you can fake the fear and humilation as you have stepped through both gates as it where and it no longer bothers you... there is a range of stratergies but this implies one has activily sought conflict on the street to conquer some inner demon or something.

    everybody has their own mechanism for self defense. often this doesn't involve fighting at all... bullshido indeed

    I have little skill on the deck it must be said

    edit...

    i would be happier with some explannation of the application of standing chokes if that is viable.. i have applied chokes but never actually choked someone out... how long does it take.. could I hold a choke for a few seconds then release and still leave someone splutering for breath for instance? or is that just ridiculously ineffective and pointless?


    Boris
    london
    Last edited by mididoctors; 9/11/2004 9:22pm at .
      #9
  10. Armparn is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2004 12:41am


     Style: Juijitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So generally people agree that Chokes and Joint Locks are sure finishers.

    Armbar, Kimura, Keylock, Heel Hook etc are all high percentage techniques that end in serious injury if there is no quick submission.

    The various strangleholds can render someone unconcious in seconds making them extremely useful neutralizers.

    So what are peoples thoughts on the various submissions that don't lend themselves to finishing on the 'street', such as lets say the bicep slicer, calf crank, etc. Should they be trained as frequently(although subs that have a high injury rate also tend to have a high tapout rate and thus are more frequently used and trained) ? Should an instructor clearly segregate techniques that are sport only vs techs with self defense applications? In my experience this isn't really happening in the various gyms and schools, although a reasonably intelligent person can probably differentiate nonetheless.
      #10
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