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  1. Shaolin Dynasty is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2002 11:48am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not argueing anything but would like to know, if the techniques result in so many injuries that they shouldn't be practiced full force then aren't they effective? Same for competition, if the technique is banned because it's dangerous isn't it effective to use for real?

    peedeeshaolin said
    "You would never go to war with a gun you have never fired"

    True. Yet you would go to war having only shot at targets and not killing people.
  2. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2002 10:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Exactly. you would go to war using a gun you have fired at a target in the same manner as you would fire on an enemy. there is no difference.

    9Chambers- Punching to the knees, and wrists IS legal. Its just worthless so nobody uses it.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  3. SifuAbel is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 12:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have to disagree, any sodier that has taken a life will tell you that they are not the same thing. Its one thing to hit a paper target or even a moving paper target, but quite another to hit another human being and hear him scream and later see his body stewn on the feild.

    As far as the ring vs the street, although the ring does give you an opportunity to go at full strength, it doesn't however pit you in with someone whose main intent is to kill you. The most one expects in the ring is to break a bone or get knocked out. On the street it doesn't end with a knock out. On the contrary, the KO on the street is only the beginning. You're a sitting duck for robbery, rape(yes, rape) and murder. You could find yourself tied to someones basement. Remember people like John Wayne Cayse, Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dommer? Lets get real here, the street is a killing feild, the ring isn't.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
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  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 1:05am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just watched Ultimate Brazil and Night of Champions tonight. Frank Shamrock, Vitor Belfort, Marc Coleman, Maurice Smith.. those guys are excellent. I hadn't watched a UFC in a little while so I thought I'd catch up.

    I see now that kicks to the knee are legal.. at least from the side. a lot of Muay Thai round kicks to the thigh and knee area in the UFC.

    I don't agree about strikes to joints being worthless. If someone has you in a headlock you
    can sometimes get out by rapping on his wrist right on the radial bone with a single nuckle (if you don't have gloves on) or even knocking on his hand behind the nuckles. Even if it doesn't break the hold it can loosen his grip enough for you to break it with your other hand.

    Of course this technique isn't possible if they have a good lock with their hands dug in behind your head but that isn't always the case - and it isn't instantly the case.

    You don't throw uppercuts to the bottom of the elbow while in a headlock - you rap on the side with your forenuckles. Search for the right spot and you'll see what I mean. A good spot is on the forearm just off the elbow - on the top side in a standard headlock.

    If kicking the knee is effective then why wouldn't punching the knee be effective? Blast someone on the inside of the knee when it is planted or locked in place and see if it doesn't hurt.

    Also rapping on the ankles can be painfull after 5 or 6 quick, hard thumps. It can cause a guy's grip to loosen enough for you to break the hold or slip out.

    I am not saying it always works but if you are in a choke hold in a real fight you can't tap out - you have to do anything you can. I've used these techniques and they worked for me in sparring. You might not be doing them right. Experiment a little. Try them out before you dissmiss them.

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  5. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 2:27am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just watched Pete Williams knock Marc Coleman out on UFC Night of Champions with a simple round kick.

    The reason it was especially cool for me was because I have been having a debate about pivots.
    I say that from a front stance, people like Frank Shamrock and Maurice Smith rely on whip kicks that use a half-pivot or less. Rarely do you see a full or extended pivot like in TKD.

    TKD people (moreso than Karate people) use the
    full-pivot or extended-pivot to generate more power. Some of their kicks go beyond even the 3/4 pivot and the base foot is facing the oppososite direction from the target. This adds stability but sacrifices mobility and speed in my opinion.

    Muay Thai people usually just whip their kicks out there like baseball bats and the pivot is almost an afterthought - more of a landing really. This is fast and you are not planted. Your weight stays over your feet and you maintain a natural gait.
    The knees remain bent. You are loose.

    Why do TKD people pivot so far? For stability, yes .. but also because in point sparring you tend to approach with a side stance to protect the legal target area on the chest and stomach. Nobody can attack your back because that's not legal and you don't have to worry about guarding your legs against a shootfighter or a wrestler so you can use a side stance fairly effectively. I've even heard teachers tell their students to lead with their butt so to protect the legal target area. (Lead with your spine, real good idea!)

    Facing your opponant is more necessary when grappling is involved and all targets are legal.
    If you look at the stand-up stances in NHB matches - almost always - the competitors are facing eachother in a standard JKD-like front guard stance. All of their weapons are available to them.

    TKD people tend to avoid rear leg attacks or crosses because when you advance sideways you have to completely turn to use those techniques. Rear leg attacks and crosses are common from the forward guard. This is evident from watching boxing and Muay Thai.

    I realize that Bruce Lee used the full-pivot on film but usually in high finishing kicks. In his quick short-range kicks and low kicks he commonly used a half-pivot. Look at Jackie Chan on film, the same thing is evident. TKD kicks are long-range and high. Kung fu kicks tend to be short-range and low. (Both Bruce and Jackie studied TKD as well as kung Fu) In close-range combat low and short is more important.

    Why am I posting all of this on here ... well, just to prove that even in such a small detail as the pivot in kicking form - there are major differences from point-sparring to NHB to real fighting. Just an observation. Any thoughts?

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  6. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 2:49am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    um, two more quick notes ..

    Wrestlers and most grapplers tend to have forward stances as well as JKD, Muay Thai, and boxers.

    Also, in real combat - picking up a rock and blasting a guy's hand while he has you in a lock
    is a way to break the hold.

    Okay, I'm done. :P

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  7. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 7:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >Have to disagree, any sodier that has taken a life will tell you that they are not the same thing. Its one thing to hit a paper target or even a moving paper target, but quite another to hit another human being and hear him scream and later see his body stewn on the feild.


    You are absolutely right. The majoirty of soldiers will have a hard time the first time they take a life in combat. Some get over it some don't. They are human and this action carries some great ramifications. The military tries to prepare pple and turn them in to "Hard Core Killers" ( most Basic programs have recruits chanting KILL KILL KILL or BLOOD MAKES THE GRASS GROW GREEN, etc.)but until it happens most guys have no idea how they would react. We have a what we call the "Battlefeild Challenge" it is were you must train a soldier to do things that he normally wouldn't do, like but himself knowingly into harms way AND/OR take a life (a soldiers primary mission above all else is to KILL THE ENEMY).

    >Also, in real combat - picking up a rock and blasting a guy's hand while he has you in a lock
    is a way to break the hold.

    Yep!
    Has anyone here ever do an "oil check"? It quite effective as well! :)

    A trained athelete does have the advantage in a fight. He is conditioned and used to dealing with situation of someone trying to beat his head in. But he still has no garuantee that he will take down everyone he meets. A real street fight is to unpredictable. A street fight doesn't mean the other guy is trying to kill you, he just may not like what you said about his mama or the shoes your wearing, but he will probably do everthing in his power to put you in your place. Also being a professional fighter has a disadvantage. If the guy KNOWS you can throw down do you think he will fight toe to toe. He will most likey try any means to even the odds.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
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  8. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 5:19pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I forgot to mention that Pete Williams (with that knock out round kick to Marc Coleman) used less than even a 1/4 pivot. On his base leg his knee was still facing forward when the kick whipped up and stuck Marc in the face. He threw it from a front guard stance.

    Also, since I am posting again anyway - here is a special little kick that I use from the front guard. I call it a "cross-stamp" for now. It deserves a more cool name but whatever.

    I am told it resembles the "hidden kick" in Kung Fu. Bruce Lee used a shin kick in JKD that has a similar concept as well. Anyway, it is a rear leg attack from the front guard stance.

    Lets say you just threw a punch using complimentary stepping like Musashi says, you are locked up, pushing off of his chest (in which case you might slide the rear leg back) or he is charging.

    Your kick starts out as a rear leg front stamp when launched but on the follow-through changes to a sidekick and shoots out to low targets: the stomach, abdominal wall, groin, hip socket, thigh (for a stop-kick) or the knee. The weapon is your heel.

    The base leg is the key. Instead of a standard pivot, it slides back, trading places with the rear leg. The kicking leg pulls it into a slight hop instead of a mere advanced pivot. The knee is bent and you are not planted. Your weight hangs in the air above your base leg that is gliding along the ground as the kicking leg drives in at a slightly downward angle. Your waist is the piston. Impact and velocity are what you are going for - rather than push.

    You whip the kick in - without even turning your upper body. You don't telegraph the kick with your upper body at all - a little acting and good timing help too. You shoot it under the radar. The kick is designed for speed and stealth.

    You land on the ground, switching lead legs so now your kicking leg is forward. You can now follow up with a number of combos like a left, right cross, step in and a left cross, right hook. (To get the landing right you have to practice it on a tree or a wall so that you account for the impact.)

    I used this kick last year to stop a guy who was 6 foot 4 and 250# (I am 5 foot 11 and 175#) on 8 seperate charges as he tried to swing punches at me. I kept him out of range each time. I landed the stop-kicks on his lead thigh planting him where he stood. I tried talking sense in to him but finally had to grapple with him a little bit to avoid striking him. I didn't want to use violent force unless it was absolutely necessary. I used a headlock and a finger lock. He agreed to leave.

    This kick can be thrown in a retreat, in an advance or with no change in position at all. It can be launched from an upright standing position or an opposite side guard as well as the front guard. (Its most effective from the front guard.) It can fire in most any direction. It is really just a low jump kick when you come down to it. Instead of jumping, you float where you stood.

    This is just my variation of the rear leg sidekick. You can set them up high and then attack the knee from the front, doing damage to a planted leg, or you can go right to the groin like a line drive. I am not sure if attacking the knee from the front is legal in the UFC but I know the groin attack is out. Landing it on the abdominal wall (about 3 inches below the naval) at a downward angle could result in giving him a hernia so be careful. You could just go to the stomach or go to the thigh for the stop-kick.

    Anyway, now you know a 9 Chamber Ko Ashi kick. Sorry if I am annoying. I just love to talk about martial arts. :)

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  9. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2002 5:30pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Forgot to say I am left handed .. that should explain why I started that combo with a lef, my kick was with my left lag - even though I was in the right guard my left leg is my best. That can be deceptive.

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  10. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2002 12:50pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kickers not being able to wear shoes is a dumb rule.
    In Pride you can now wear shoes!!!

    To win an unarmed conflict don't stay unarmed
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