My problem with the UFC.

**King of Fists** · Posted On: 7/30/2002 5:54pm

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That's why we tap out. However, the lock is the same, the pressure is the same, and the resistance is the same. Heck, most grapplers will tell you that they don't release the pressure on the hold until they hear a tap, or "MATTE". If you don't hear a tap, you keep applying pressure until you do. Someone in my club got his arm broke two weeks ago because he was too stubborn (read: STUPID) to submit to an arm lock. There's also been several cases where Judokas have passed out from choke holds BEFORE they're able to tap out.

And there all kinds of things people just don't do in a BJJ or Judo dojo that would be street effective. Take the triangle... Just pick the guy up applying the triangle and power bomb him down on his skull. Or if someone is in your guard... stand up, and if he tries to hold on to you, SLAM HIM. This is illegal in BJJ, and will get your ass thrown out of any school.

First off, you'd have to outweigh the person doing the choke by quite a bit. Doing something like that could cause serious neck and spinal injury, unless the guy weighs under 100 lbs and you're a powerlifter.

There's simply way too much weight placed on your head, arm, neck, and shoulder. Furthermore, lifting someone's entire weight on your head and shoulder only increases the pressure of the choke. Finally, you'd have to pull that off mighty quick, because the lack of oxygen can effect you within a matter of seconds.

BTW Attempting to slam someone on their back who is skilled in breakfalling is no guarentee that they're going to release the pressure around your neck.

I can't speak for Bjj, but the Triangle choke itself is illegal in Judo competition. However in Randori practice, we do it quite often. I personally have never seen ANYONE ever powerslam someone doing a Triangle choke on them. Maybe someone on this forum with experience in Bjj have.

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**PeedeeShaolin** · Posted On: 7/30/2002 8:19pm

Ruk makes no sense. The OBJECT of MMA is to knockout your opponent or submit him. A Karate guy would NOT pull punches. Who saw Pedro Rizzo hit Josh Barnett in the jaw? He nearly took his head off. I have a black belt in Karate so I would KNOW if a technique was being pulled or not.

**ruk** · Posted On: 7/30/2002 9:25pm

You make no sense when you say I make no sense.

I wasn't referring to MMA... the discussion pertained to how Karate people "pull their punches" when sparring in the dojo. I pointed out that grapplers do the same thing.

**Rorny Gracie** · Posted On: 7/30/2002 10:13pm

Did you get fries with your blackbelt PeeDee??
and were they regular or curly?

**migo** · Posted On: 7/30/2002 10:32pm

Peepee is really pathetic. He was getting so much heat at MartialWay that he apologized and said half a dozen things that contradicted his previous posts. Poor baby can't take his own medicine. If you start insulting him repeatedly you'll be able to see him cry like a schoolgirl.

**PeedeeShaolin** · Posted On: 7/31/2002 2:55am

He was talking about the UFC Ruk. He wasnt talking about your little Karate class. And grapplers do NOT pull punches. If I apply and armbar I am going to put pressure on your elbow until you physically cannot take anymore and you acknowledge this buy quiting via tapout. Or if you are being choked you dont tapout until you are about to pass out. This is not pulling your technique. This is THE most realistic application of technique in ALL of martial arts. It leaves NO QUESTION as to whether the technoqie was effective or not AND we can immediately roll again because noone was hurt.

LOL I didnt get fries with my black belt man. I got a broken hand and a broken foot. And I fought full contact with it. It was the hardest thing Ive ever done. I train BJJ now but that day will always stand out for me. I took alot of kicks to my left thigh and a really solid knee to the right side of my face. All good tho.

**PeedeeShaolin** · Posted On: 7/31/2002 3:05am

LOL @ Migo!!

This guy is so fukking pathetic that I would bet he actually believes the shid she slings!

First of all, Bitch, I wasnt getting ANY heat except from YOUR gay ass because your in love with me. Heres a tip: I got a girlfriend man, im NOT gonna fuk you.

Second, how the fuk did I contradict myself you slime? You TRUELY are fukked up arent you? Do you read anything I write or are you too busy stroking yourself to my written word? Believe it or not I say the things I do because I MEAN THEM you idiot! Not because I want to turn on some half wit fukking trekkie that dreams of buggering me while he watches Enter the Dragon and whips me with his plastic nunchakus screaming WASSAAA!! at the top of his lungs.

I dont know where the fuk your hard on for me stems from, but its disturbing. Cant you jerk off to Brittany Spears like the rest of us and leave me out of your sick masturbation fantasies?

**Amir** · Posted On: 7/31/2002 9:26am

King Of feasts - Thanks for your praise

About Judo and "Dangerous Techniques", from my teachers statements they are much more common in Judo then you think, it is true they are limited and banned in competition. One example I remember seeing is making a common waist throw but holding the opponents head.

As for Ju-Jitsu and Kyoshu (the Japanese term that covers both Kumite and Randori),
To the best of my knowledge, the practice of sparring in Ju-jitsu was banned by the Mieji restoration, only a short time before Kano found a way to allow it. I personally strongly suspect many found loopholes around it. Please read the following article in the link:
http://members.tripodasia.com.hk/haman316/unit6
It is a translation from one of Korindo-Aikido Japanese Shihans (8th Dan), whom has learnt multiple TJJ styles before he started learning Korindo Aikido.

About stagnation of TJJ, while some few systems did remain exactly the same for many years, most do change. The history of TJJ is one of constant development, new systems rose in large quantity. Make no mistake; Kano wasn't the only one to invent, nor Ueshiba, nor Hirai (the founder of Korindo aikido, it is a separate art).

If indeed Kano invented the idea of break falling, then it seems most systems have adopted it. The same goes for lots of other things. Talking to that Shihan and meeting some practitioners while I was in Japan, I got the impression lots of the more serious practitioners learn more then one method of TJJ (as you know there probably are hundreds of different styles). Thus practicing "Mixed M.A." however, they do not neglect the traditional aspects of the arts, including weapons training and "ineffective techniques" etc. but rather consider them as a stage in learning that helps one learn other things indirectly. I'll give an example:
Starting Karate you learn to pull the other hand back to your waist while you punch. But this training is only meant to teach you increased body movement, learning to use all your body power in the punch (mass and muscles from the legs, through the waist, shoulders and then the hands) rather then just your arm's muscles. An advanced Karateka shouldn't normally pull his other hand while punching (unless he has some other reasoning such as changing his profile ...)
The same idea applies to most other things, there rarely exist something in a serious M.A. that doesn't have some utility, either as a training means or as an actual tool. It is true though that many teachers do not know the real utility of some exercises. I suspect this comes from the popularity of M.A. today there are many more teachers, and quite a few of them are far less skilled then once. When someone asks me which M.A. to learn, I always say: "forget the name of the M.A. and find a good teacher !" it is crucial to find the right teacher for your personality, one with sufficient knowledge, mature enough to know he doesn't hold all the answers.

You wrote " Judo became technically superior to the ancient jujutsu styles", I disagree. I am not sure Judo is "technically superior", it's a complex issue, I doubt anyone could solve. And even if it is, it probably has more to do with it's popularity (hey, masses can be an advantage too) which stems from Kano's efforts to incorporate Judo in the public schools of Japan, more then in the usage of competition.
By the way, I was told Judo as a competition sport was much more flowing and encouraged the use of minimal force until the 1950-1960's when the western competitors huge advantage in strength enabled them to win after they reduced the Japanese advantage in technique, agility, flowing movement (or simply put 'Ju' in Japanese). Not so much of resistance as most of you are describing it using "full force" but rather much more similar to the way many practice Randori in non-competition arts.

As for your reference to item 10. I didn't say current people are even close to the level of samurai. But I did try to remind everyone that sparring isn't the only useful way of practice. Other ways existed and still do. A way of envisioning it is a balance based on a coil, each point on the circle the coil is projected on represents a different element : sparring, movement, Kata, Kihon ... You keep progressing on the coil, thus supposedly returning to the same balance every few months (or years) but in fact you have progressed in the other dimension - your level is higher and you find much wisdom and depth in things that appeared very basic once. To be a serious M.A. (even as an amateur) you should continue exploring and improving yourself, and never neglect any part of your training.
If you read the link then you could see that Kyoshu can be very similar to actual fighting, but this is just one form of sparring which is more of a test of capabilities then a way to learn and improve.

Amir

**Wheels** · Posted On: 7/31/2002 9:31am

And I beg to differ. In Karate, people will often "pull their punches", and not go 100% This is true. But the same is the case for BJJ/grappling.

If I have to punch someone in the head hard enough to knock him out in order to be realistic in Karate, don't you have to keep cranking the armbar in BJJ until it snaps, in order for it to be realistic?

And there all kinds of things people just don't do in a BJJ or Judo dojo that would be street effective. Take the triangle... Just pick the guy up applying the triangle and power bomb him down on his skull. Or if someone is in your guard... stand up, and if he tries to hold on to you, SLAM HIM. This is illegal in BJJ, and will get your ass thrown out of any school.

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No, because Bjj/Grappling folks are able to train like they fight. There's a reason why Kano removed strikes from Judo, because there's no way you can practice striking someone in a dojo without seriously injuring someone, and yourself.

However, thanks to mats and Ukemi, one could throw a resisting opponent full force into a mat, then finish them off with a armlock, or a choke. The "defeated" will be relatively unhurt and be able to fight another day. When it came time to test your skills in a "real" situation, you had the knowledge of how to throw and control a resisting opponent from practice.

Compare that to Karate/TKD/Kung Fu training where people face off each other and pull their attacks! You can't go full contact unless you're wearing pads and gloves, and that significantly lessons your striking ability. I'd like to see a traditional school where they allow full-on blows. That school will be closed within days.

Where's the resistance? How can you EVER practice your "crippling blow" if you can never try it out on a resisting/moving/stronger opponent? Is it any wonder that when the time comes to use these abilities, the practicioners of these arts freeze?

Oh, and Judo is a MMA. It contains several old Japanese Ryuha, and aspects of wrestling, and its picking up new stuff all the time.

Edited by - King of Fists on July 30 2002 08:27:41
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IMO and for most situations you cant stand and slam to escape a triangle or someones guard. When someone tries to stand out of my triangle I hook the inside leg and sweep them over. Now I have a mounted triangle and your fukked worse than you were. For the guard slam scenario, you lift me up I a: drop my feet to the ground and we are both standing again or b: I sweep you again coming to the top.
Also someone said a triangle is not legal for judo. I have won a few golds in Judo with triangles. One was a flying triangle. Maybe they didnt know the rules.

9chambers · Posted On: 7/31/2002 10:03am

On that McBeatdown clip in the downloads section a guy has another guy in a triangle - so the other guy picks him up and slams him to the canvas - it doesn't phase the guy so he does it again then steps on his face - so the guy with the triangle switches to an arm bar and the other guy taps out.

If you tuck your head and control your breathing you can take a good slam to the canvas - maybe even the sidewalk.

That being said - some good punches thrown at the knees, elbows or wrists might have broken the hold up before the guy got a good lock on him - if they were legal.

Then again the slam maneuver almost worked. If he would have had shoes on when he did the stomp to the head I am sure it would have broken the move up more. As it was, he most likely hurt his foot more than the other guy's head.

Kickers not being able to wear shoes is a dumb rule. How realistic is that? You can easily catch, bend and damage a toe just walking around in there. someone can step on your instep. You could get cut really easy. It makes guy's hold back.

And don't say that kicks are better when you are barefoot. Its not true or back in the old days people would have went to war barefooted - they didn't.

They should at least be able to wear those Otomix shoes or wrestling shoes.

my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!