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  1. Phil is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2002 7:34pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well then maybe they weren't all that great.
  2. ruk is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 3:26am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The same could be said for BJJ/grappling.


    A lot of unrealistic one-step drills, a lot of unrealistic sparring (often where the students refuse to hurt their classmates), etc.

  3. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 6:55am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still think the guys that participate in the UFC are told backstage not to do anything that would get them banned in yet another State or anything that would keep their opponant from coming back
    for the next PPV.

    Most crippling Karate blows can best be explained by pointing out the targets: the spine, the neck, the joints (knee, elbow, wrist, etc), the abdominal wall, the eyes, the entire weener area - all of these are illegal targets in the UFC or any Karate competition you might see today.

    Do you honestly think all the participants in the UFC are ignorant of the fact that they could strike these targets? Are they too dumb or poorly trained to know how to attack them properly? No. Those targets are just not legal.

    In the early UFC you did see some people get messed up. That guy Hackney slammed in the balls repeatedly may have not appeared injured as they helped him out of the ring but I am sure his balls were as big as grapefruits later that night.

    Yes, the strikers who have done well cross-trained in grappling arts. Have you ever stopped to think that most of the grapplers who have done well have cross-trained in striking/ kicking arts as well? Its true. Most UFC participants have cross-trained. Most advanced martial artists do.

    Strikers have to hold off from using more brutal techniques, that is true. Grapplers do too. You don't see guys carry the arm bars through until it breaks the arm. Small joint manipulation is not legal so nobody can fold and twist the wrist - tearing tendons. Nobody breaks fingers or uses finger locks. Snapping the neck instead of choking is not legal. I wonder why..

    It isn't just strikers who have their arsenal limited. That is why I don't think the UFC can be called literally NHB. Both strikers and grapplers are limited.

    By the way, Jujutsu has always been considered a mixed martial art (as opposed to Judo) because in Jujutu (BJJ or JJJ) you train in striking and kicking as well as grappling.

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  4. King of Fists is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 8:18am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The same could be said for BJJ/grappling.
    No, because Bjj/Grappling folks are able to train like they fight. There's a reason why Kano removed strikes from Judo, because there's no way you can practice striking someone in a dojo without seriously injuring someone, and yourself.

    However, thanks to mats and Ukemi, one could throw a resisting opponent full force into a mat, then finish them off with a armlock, or a choke. The "defeated" will be relatively unhurt and be able to fight another day. When it came time to test your skills in a "real" situation, you had the knowledge of how to throw and control a resisting opponent from practice.

    Compare that to Karate/TKD/Kung Fu training where people face off each other and pull their attacks! You can't go full contact unless you're wearing pads and gloves, and that significantly lessons your striking ability. I'd like to see a traditional school where they allow full-on blows. That school will be closed within days.

    Where's the resistance? How can you EVER practice your "crippling blow" if you can never try it out on a resisting/moving/stronger opponent? Is it any wonder that when the time comes to use these abilities, the practicioners of these arts freeze?

    Oh, and Judo is a MMA. It contains several old Japanese Ryuha, and aspects of wrestling, and its picking up new stuff all the time.


    Edited by - King of Fists on July 30 2002 08:27:41
  5. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 11:16am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First I must admit:

    I train in several TMA and I have rarely even watched any UFC tournament, nor NHB.

    My main M.A. is Korindo Aikido, which is a style of Aikido that is closely related to the classic JJJ, including weapons training locks, throws some strikes etc. My current secondary M.A. is TKD, were the teaching is divided to competition based and “traditional”, I don’t practice is often enough. I plan to continue mixing other TMA as secondary M.A. to fill in any holes I have in learning. My current plans include Kung-Fu, Judo (mostly for the groud) and maybe some Escrima. Oh, yea, I am about 30 and practice M.A. as my hobby for the last 12 years or so.

    Reading this Forum and a couple of others I have a few things to say about UFC and MMA :
    1. Some seem to consider as MMA only the people who compete – the professionals. I have yet to meet any professional TMA FIGHTER, I have met some great teachers, but I doubt there still are any FIGHTERS in the TMA as in people whose profession and main occupation is training to fight and win. Further, once some fighter will succeed in the arena using any TMA you will probably include it in your MMA and the argument will be flamed once more.
    2. If the rules I have read are true, then obviously only submission related arts are useful to the UFC. Limiting the target area for striking has a huge influence on your fighting:
    I have the same problem trying to practice competition TKD, I keep trying to hit the persons back, or if he is tall – his knee or use a “low kick” (to his leg muscles as in Tai-boxing) all of these moves are disallowed in competition, thus making me very limited and forcing me to think twice before doing anything, slowing my reaction time and making me ineffective. I play sparred with someone in a park and suddenly my kicks got much better since I didn’t have to limit myself.
    3. I still don’t get how come broken hands are so rare in these tournaments. Practicing Aikido I can tell you braking small joints happens even against our wishes and I often have to hold the technique back to avoid breaking another trainees hand. I lately read somewhere (on E-budo I think) breaking arms did happen in an Aikido performance, despite people’s wishes and several people complained about it. I would expect it to be even more common in a real fight with more then 100% effort of trained stronger then average athletes. Once again, Could there be some rules??? Any other explanation?
    4. As for ground grappling, I lately asked my Aikido teacher about learning some ground grappling to fill in this gap in my self defense capabilities ( We tried playing some in the TKD which only showed me I have lots to learn about it). He told me I should never go to the ground in a real fight as it would put me in high risk of being stomped and kicked at by any attackers friends.
    Now, many of you may think he just wishes to retain me, and would prefer not to send me to some other teacher, but I asked about learning in the class he is teaching (he has a 6th Dan in judo and trained at the Kodokan in Japan for several years and his knowledge and skill keep amazing me anew), and he would have earned more money this way.
    My point here is simple – ground fighting/grappling is an amazing skill, but relaying too heavily on it for self-defense is a McDojo approach, even more then relying on striking capabilities.
    5. Some here claimed we should view the UFC as a lab, according to this claim. This competition has the least rules and as such, it gives us the best image of the real world. I would like to dispute that:
    Let us discard the subject of rules, and assume it has no effect, yet as mentioned before, MMA fighters are professional athletes, very gifted and extremely well trained. Most people in the real world are not! And will never be! nor are the likely attackers in the out there on that mythological street!
    Having “Killer instinct” and mentality as well as being born an athletes with great shape and coordination is very helpful and may make one a natural fighter. These elements may determine any fight in the ring or on the street. But yours truly average Joe deserves some chance to improve his self defense too.
    I’ll admit it, my inborn skill isn’t so great, actually it’s rather poor. My natural coordination sucks and as a youngster I hated sports. I never expected to be a world-class fighter. But learning TMA for years allows me to improve my capabilities significantly.
    If something is possible for some athlete it doesn’t mean I’ll be able to do it. I might not have the strength or the speed. But I can slowly learn to be smart, learn clean technique, placement and timing. I’ll never be world class but I will be the best I can.
    6. A thing that disturbs me is most of you would rather try and crush your opponent rather then outsmart him. You’ll crash through his defenses.
    I was always taught this isn’t the way. It might have some connection to the following story:
    when my teacher started learning Judo in Japan, he was a sportsman, young fit and strong. He came to the Kodokan and was training with some frail elder person. This elder asked him to be much softer and receptive, naturally my teacher tried using his force on this elderly to win, and found himself flying and breaking a bone in his shoulder.
    Nowadays my teacher keeps telling all his students to be soft and flowing, no mater which art they are studying: Korindo Aikido, Judo or Karate. He claims you should start learning to spar in a non-competitive approach to become sensitive and better attuned to your enemy. Using crude force shouldn’t be an option in training since one should always expect his enemy to be stronger. If you wish to counter a technique you must do it in a flowing manner, not by sheer strength.



    7. Some of you seem to claim full strength on strength sparring is critical. Once more, I disagree:
    Sparring is essential to learning M.A., but I wouldn’t use full strengh in it, even myself as a not so good exponent of the TMA might too easily send someone to the hospital with a broken wrist or elbow. Some of you may think of it as bravado, but hey, when my younger brother (who practices with us) passed the age of 15 and started growing physically, we kept hearing complaints about damage to elbows and such. He wasn’t veteran at the time, but being much lighter then us, he was used to apply some force to the technique.

    In the Aikido class most of our sparring is only light and slow (relatively), to prevent injuries (we still get too many of those), other classes in my Dojo may have more intense sparing according to style. We do practice full speed, in Aikido, but only in pre-agreed exercises, where the attacker knows in advance how to save his joints.
    The intensity of the training has to be adjusted to the level of the practitioner, otherwise serious injuries will follow.
    Besides, I strongly believe the best way to really learn a technique is to do practice it in as perfect way as possible for a few hundred thousand times. Practicing in various situations with various partners. Some attempts at resistance are due, but only after the technique is sitting well in you. And you will improve your performance by then.
    8. I have another question:
    some here claim MMA is about selecting only those techniques that work. How do you know which technique works without truly mastering it?
    I know of some techniques that look very easy and practical, yet it will take me several more decades to get them even close to decent. Others may seem very complicated but are actually much easier then that. On what experience do you base your knowledge? An year’s study is insufficient for any serious MA. I can testify that in my first year of learning Aikido my self-defense skills were actually lower, as my studies conflicted with my natural instincts for a response. These days I am much better then I was. This is the Nature of some TMA, they take a long time only to become competent in them, by that age you are no longer interested in competition or head bashing (Personally I think it’s a great mechanism to reduce the abuse of TMA by someone, by the time he is capable he no longer has the wish).
    So how would you decide which technique is best?
    And why do you think nobody saw this earlier?
    I do know some techniques are just meant as stages in learning. Most of the basic Kihon of Karate is just a way of teaching full body movement when striking. Don’t expect a serious advanced Karateka to remove his defense as strikes and pull his second hand backwards. He does it in Kihon to practice using all his weight and muscles behind each punch. But it will never happen in a real fight (unless he expects some advantage by it).
    9. Some of you point to Judo and Giojoro Kano as the innovator of using sparring for practice. While traditional JJJ has used Kata extensively, I happen to know they also sparred on occasion.
    I also know Judo had to mitigate many techniques to allow sparring. My teacher still teaches both types of techniques in Judo, often saying things like: “this is the competition version and this is the real thing. Note the competition version removed this and that since they tend to cause injury. Nowadays these original techniques are forbidden to the young and are only taught to the elder, even minded Judoka”.
    Boxes etc. are not banned in Judo, they are only banned to the lower echelon and in competition.
    10. Another claim is that one can’t practice dangerous techniques full force, therefore the non lethal techniques are much better.
    I think the claim itself sounds absurd, besides go and check how armies train for a real fight (forget hand to hand combat, no serious modern army dwells deeply into it – they have guns and bombs). Learn how the samurai and ancient warriors learned to fight. They were very efficient, even though they couldn’t practice full force. Once again, the idea’s are endless repetition, meditation (guided imagination of you wish) and only light sparring.


    Now I know, Some of you may read this post and think I would consider any MMA as a lousy thing for a real encounter. Well, wrong again, I honestly believe any MA practice is good, so long as it keeps to the following golden rules:
    * Don’t promise what you can’t keep (teacher)
    * Always remember in a real fight all will be different (student)
    * Mindset is as important as knowledge – learn to keep your calm (student).
    * Running away is the best solution for most self-defense situations (student).

    And if any of you think I am learning in a McDojo, just because I learn TMA. Well, enjoy yourselves, what can I say.

    Amir



    P.S.
    English is not my native tongue, thus I apologize of I happen to translate some slang literally rather by applying the right English term. Nor do I know the English names of various muscles and bones. Hope it didn’t disturb you too much.
  6. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 11:51am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TMA PURPOSELY avoid delivering damaging blows, huh? This guy TRUELY lives in a fantasy world. That is, without any doubt in my mind, THE single most ignorant statement I've ever encountered on any forum in the last few years.

    THEN Phil says that the fighters from Fighting Black Kings '...werent all that great.'.

    Those were some of the toughest Karate fighters of all time. They wiped the FLOOR with the Kung Fu stylists who tried to compete with them. Kyokushin may not be a complete art, but its practitioners are some of the toughest in the world.

    Have you ever fought bare knuckle or gone shin to shin in full contact competition? Just BLOCKING a low round kick would make you quit.

    These 'crippling blows' are not seen in ANY competition or reported on ANY street(with proof) because they do not exist except in the mind of a few misguided and misled people.

    I would really suggest putting some of your theories to test aganst someone competant and see if these techniques REALLY can stop someone.

    You would never go to war with a gun you have never fired. Or equipment that you didnt know how to use.

    Trying to defend yourself with techniques that you have an unrealistic idea about is very dangerous.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  7. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 11:52am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TMA PURPOSELY avoid delivering damaging blows, huh? This guy TRUELY lives in a fantasy world. That is, without any doubt in my mind, THE single most ignorant statement I've ever encountered on any forum in the last few years.

    THEN Phil says that the fighters from Fighting Black Kings '...werent all that great.'.

    Those were some of the toughest Karate fighters of all time. They wiped the FLOOR with the Kung Fu stylists who tried to compete with them. Kyokushin may not be a complete art, but its practitioners are some of the toughest in the world.

    Have you ever fought bare knuckle or gone shin to shin in full contact competition? Just BLOCKING a low round kick would make you quit.

    These 'crippling blows' are not seen in ANY competition or reported on ANY street(with proof) because they do not exist except in the mind of a few misguided and misled people.

    I would really suggest putting some of your theories to test aganst someone competant and see if these techniques REALLY can stop someone.

    You would never go to war with a gun you have never fired. Or equipment that you didnt know how to use.

    Trying to defend yourself with techniques that you have an unrealistic idea about is very dangerous.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  8. ruk is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 5:28pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And I beg to differ. In Karate, people will often "pull their punches", and not go 100% This is true. But the same is the case for BJJ/grappling.

    If I have to punch someone in the head hard enough to knock him out in order to be realistic in Karate, don't you have to keep cranking the armbar in BJJ until it snaps, in order for it to be realistic?

    And there all kinds of things people just don't do in a BJJ or Judo dojo that would be street effective. Take the triangle... Just pick the guy up applying the triangle and power bomb him down on his skull. Or if someone is in your guard... stand up, and if he tries to hold on to you, SLAM HIM. This is illegal in BJJ, and will get your ass thrown out of any school.



    <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:
    No, because Bjj/Grappling folks are able to train like they fight. There's a reason why Kano removed strikes from Judo, because there's no way you can practice striking someone in a dojo without seriously injuring someone, and yourself.

    However, thanks to mats and Ukemi, one could throw a resisting opponent full force into a mat, then finish them off with a armlock, or a choke. The "defeated" will be relatively unhurt and be able to fight another day. When it came time to test your skills in a "real" situation, you had the knowledge of how to throw and control a resisting opponent from practice.

    Compare that to Karate/TKD/Kung Fu training where people face off each other and pull their attacks! You can't go full contact unless you're wearing pads and gloves, and that significantly lessons your striking ability. I'd like to see a traditional school where they allow full-on blows. That school will be closed within days.

    Where's the resistance? How can you EVER practice your "crippling blow" if you can never try it out on a resisting/moving/stronger opponent? Is it any wonder that when the time comes to use these abilities, the practicioners of these arts freeze?

    Oh, and Judo is a MMA. It contains several old Japanese Ryuha, and aspects of wrestling, and its picking up new stuff all the time.


    Edited by - King of Fists on July 30 2002 08:27:41
    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>
  9. King of Fists is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 5:30pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought your post was very good, and I'll let others debate the other points you made. However, the following is what caught my interest, since I was the one discussing Kano and the history of Judo earlier;

    9.Some of you point to Judo and Giojoro Kano as the innovator of using sparring for practice. While traditional JJJ has used Kata extensively, I happen to know they also sparred on occasion.
    Its true that Traditional Japanese Jujutsu schools (Tjj) did spar on many occasions. However their kumite often involved the practicioners getting seriously hurt or injured. Some schools completely abandoned Kumite, and simply did kata, losing their combat edge. As for the schools that did kumite, they were forced to pull their blows and their more dangerous techniques, because they were just that, far too dangerous to practice in a dojo situation. When Kano came along with Judo, he removed the more dangerous techniques from the incorporated Jujutsu styles, relegated Atemiwaza (Strikes) to kata practice, introduced mats, and introduced breakfalling.

    Judo became technically superior to the ancient jujutsu styles because it was able to adapt, instead of stagnate. Kano realized the skill of western wrestlers, so he incorporated wrestling into Judo. Fusen-Ryu beat the tar out of Judo in a tournament, so Kano adopted ground fighting from not only the Fusen-Ryu, but another Jj style that specialized in newaza so it'll never happen again. Thus by the time Judo went against the strongest Jujutsu school in Meiji Japan, the Kodokan beat them soundly.

    I also know Judo had to mitigate many techniques to allow sparring. My teacher still teaches both types of techniques in Judo, often saying things like: “this is the competition version and this is the real thing. Note the competition version removed this and that since they tend to cause injury. Nowadays these original techniques are forbidden to the young and are only taught to the elder, even minded Judoka”.
    Honestly, I can't understand some of the rules regarding Judo competition. However, the only thing really left out of Judo competition are certain leg locks and choke holds, things that your instructor should readily know regardless. Without competition, Judo would lose its edge as a living, evolving martial art/sport.

    10. Another claim is that one can’t practice dangerous techniques full force, therefore the non lethal techniques are much better.
    I think the claim itself sounds absurd, besides go and check how armies train for a real fight (forget hand to hand combat, no serious modern army dwells deeply into it – they have guns and bombs). Learn how the samurai and ancient warriors learned to fight. They were very efficient, even though they couldn’t practice full force. Once again, the idea’s are endless repetition, meditation (guided imagination of you wish) and only light sparring.
    Hardly. The Samurai in the civil war era of Japan did learn prearranged techniques. However, they were also constantly using these prearraged techniques in actual warfare. They also practiced their cutting skills on dead bodies, or prisoners of war who were to be executed. However,they were also instilled a border-line pyschopathic warrior code that basically made them fearless. That, and the constant warfare, and the fact that they had been groomed to be killers since they came out the womb, made the samurai very powerful and dangerous adversaries.

    However, unlike the samurai, people who do prearranged forms today aren't doing it for their lives. They aren't going to leave class and enter a huge battle, and they haven't been doing it since birth. So you really can't compare the two groups.


    Once again, I enjoyed your post.
  10. King of Fists is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2002 5:51pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I have to punch someone in the head hard enough to knock him out in order to be realistic in Karate, don't you have to keep cranking the armbar in BJJ until it snaps, in order for it to be realistic?
    That's why we tap out. However, the lock is the same, the pressure is the same, and the resistance is the same. Heck, most grapplers will tell you that they don't release the pressure on the hold until they hear a tap, or "MATTE". If you don't hear a tap, you keep applying pressure until you do. Someone in my club got his arm broke two weeks ago because he was too stubborn (read: STUPID) to submit to an arm lock. There's also been several cases where Judokas have passed out from choke holds BEFORE they're able to tap out.


    And there all kinds of things people just don't do in a BJJ or Judo dojo that would be street effective. Take the triangle... Just pick the guy up applying the triangle and power bomb him down on his skull. Or if someone is in your guard... stand up, and if he tries to hold on to you, SLAM HIM. This is illegal in BJJ, and will get your ass thrown out of any school.
    First off, you'd have to outweigh the person doing the choke by quite a bit. Doing something like that could cause serious neck and spinal injury, unless the guy weighs under 100 lbs and you're a powerlifter.

    There's simply way too much weight placed on your head, arm, neck, and shoulder. Furthermore, lifting someone's entire weight on your head and shoulder only increases the pressure of the choke. Finally, you'd have to pull that off mighty quick, because the lack of oxygen can effect you within a matter of seconds.

    BTW, attempting to slam someone on their back who is skilled in breakfalling is no guarentee that they're going to release the pressure around your neck.

    I can't speak for Bjj, but the Triangle choke itself is illegal in Judo competition. However in Randori practice, we do it quite often. I personally have never seen ANYONE ever powerslam someone doing a Triangle choke on them. Maybe someone on this forum with experience in Bjj have.



    Edited by - King of Fists on July 30 2002 17:55:28
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