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  1. ruk is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 5:32am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And Hackney was just a blue collar worker who trained at night as a hobby, which makes what he did even more incredible. Makes you think... if he was younger, and if he had been able to train fulltime...

    Hackney was one guy in the tournament I gave respect to. The power of the "Mullet" made him invincible and thats how he defeated Emmanuel and he almost cracked Uncle Royces skull in!

    --If Sakuraba had children
    would that mean he has "Little Saks"???
  2. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 8:34am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would first like to say that I have a lot of respect for UFC fighters like Hackney, Frank shamrock and Coleman - especially those guys from the early days. Punching someone in the balls repeatedly should have never been made against the rules. lol

    Here is my problem with the UFC today though. I feel the rules nearly cripple strikers as compared to the freedom grapplers have. I am not saying the rules should change - I just feel that people should be made more aware of these rules and the effect they have on the strategies.

    As I said, groin attacks of any kind are not legal anymore - stand up or on the ground. You can't
    mess with small joints or strike joints of any
    kind whether it be kicking his knee to stop his advance or punching the elbow on the arm he is bracing himself with on the ground. Striking to the spine or the back of the head is not legal on the ground or standing. Throat strikes of any kind are not legal - not to mention punching, kicking or chopping at the corotid artery, spine or neck. Kicking, stomping or kneeing the head of a grounded opponent is out. Kicking to the kidney with the heel like Royce did in UFC 1 is out. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck is out. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent is out. Kickers can't wear shoes = they risk breaking toes or getting their instep stepped on constantly. Strikers wear gloves = they can't attack cavities with nuckles.

    The following two rules are a little more weird:

    No engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. - In other words in the back the guys are told not to use techniques that are blatant attempts to injure the other guy.

    Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, ... Here we see strikers forced to get close to grapplers and mix it up in close-quarters. You can't keep your distance. You can't be a sniper from back at a safe distance. You've got to get in there where he can grab you.

    I am not saying BJJ and wrestling aren't really great arts. They ARE great. I am just saying that boxers and kickers are a little limited as to what they can do as compared to grapplers who are allowed to do almost everything they do back at
    school.

    You can find the UFC rules here:
    http://www.ufc.tv/history/rules.asp

    I am not pushing to make the UFC mortal combat. The rules make sense. I am just saying to not represent it as being NHB. It isn't.

    my kung fu eeeeeees better than yours!
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 10:29am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    FINALLY Some pple on this board that can have a intellectual debate!!!!! Keep up the good work! This is what Phrost wanted at McDojo, I believe.


    I choke you, (For awhile I thought you and Phrost were the same person)

    Yes it is quite possible to strike the groining in the gaurd. Several "passing the guard" methods involve groin stikes.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 2:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kaufman, are you referring to pressure points as in the mystical "make their eyeballs pop out" McDojo type pressure points, or the anatomical ones where there are a lot of pressure sensitive nerves gathered at joints?

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  5. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 2:29pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Over reliance on any techniques is a bad thing.
    I'll punch you, I'll kick you, I'll elbow you, I'll knee you, I'll headbutt you, I'll fingertip strike you, I'll knife hand you, I'll wristlock you, I'll chickenwing you, I'll armbar you, I'll leglock you, I'll choke you and more. I'll also gouge, and I'll hit anywhere that you leave open. And next time you try and pass through the guard look and see what targets are available to strike before you try to move into side mount.

    As for weapons. If you are willing to take on an opponent who uses a knife, you better be one of two things. Trapped, or completely nuts.

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  6. Shaolin Dynasty is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 3:11pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's more the pro fighters training that makes them so good rather than technique. If you took two guys that train 2x per week for an hour no matter what style, they will suck. Most pro fighters are incredible atheletes with allot of heart. Also rules make it so the fights last longer therefore they are way more draining than the typical 'streetfight". Also I think the rules changed not to give an "edge" to grapplers but to make these tournaments more acceptable to the public. Remeber when these fights were banned?

    BTW, most people have some kind of myth about a "streetfighter" most gangbangers can't fight for ****. You should be more worried about their guns than them "stomping you to death". Still I'd much rather fight some untrained guy than a pro fighter of any kind (unless i was out to train the extent of my skills.)
  7. Andy Kaufman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 4:53pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    let me reiterate that this is not another "effectiveness of bjj" thread. events like the UFC give us insight as to what works on the stand up end of the spectrum. i would have no problem recommending keith hackney's brand of kenpo as we have seen it can be effective.

    i agree there are currently too many rules in the present day UFC. some fighters play the rules to their advantage, thus the outcome of the fight is not necessarily what would have happened in an NHB setting. competitions with the least amount of rules (early UFCs etc..) paint the most accurate picture as to what is effective.

    Kaufman,

    consider this, though... Cheung and Boztepe went to the ground, but Ralph Gracie and Bobby Southworth did standup only. Ralph ran up and punched Southworth. He didn't try and pull guard or go for a takedown. His first instinct was striking.

    And don't forget Tito Ortiz's recent beat down at the hands of an English soccer hooligan after the last UFC... that was pure 100% brawling/striking
    i am not sure much can be learned from the gracie-southworth scuffle as it lasted possibly 10 seconds before being separated.

    i cannot speak for tito ortiz as i have only heard second hand accounts as to what happened, but that brings up a good point.

    NHB contests do not address the issue of multiple attackers and weapons. so how are we to avoid adopting "theories" as legitimate techniques? i won't be trying to crescent kick a gun out of someone's hand anytime soon. not will i be trying to double leg some guy when three of his buddies are circling me.




    Edited by - Andy Kaufman on July 28 2002 16:55:20
  8. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 5:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    true sick, they are still good instincts, and in street fights you almost definitely would be more scared..
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  9. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 5:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I cant believe that topics like this still exist. Its like people telling you the Earth really IS flat.

    As for Migo, hes just a fool. He'll never get laid. Its obvious.

    Nobody here takes the UFC as the 'end all be all' of martial arts. This is simply the year 2002. If you tell me that a certain technique works, then show me. There are many ways that someone can show mw how a technique works. Sorry to burst everybodys happy bubble, but the 'Masters' have been teaching unworkable techniques and flawed idea's for quite sometime. You want to know wy? Because nobody ever had the common sense to say "Prove it". They blindly accepted what was taught, just like the instructors before them. They took their training as FACT and LAW, and never for a moment questioned its effectiveness. The results were some viable technique surrounded unworkable movements and these movements were mistakenly thought of as effective.

    For someone to say that what happens in a contest with very few rules is '..not the street.' is ridiculous. If any of those 'Sport Fighters' wanted to fight your instructor with totally no rules your instructor would be in a very serious situation.

    Everyone screams BRUCE LEE! at the top of their lungs. Well Bruce Lee said that forms were a waste of time. If you think his advice is so valuable then why do you not listen to his advice? He also said that sparring was the ultimate test of ones abilities. What kind of sparring is more realistic than modern mixed martial arts?

    Wherever Bruce Lee is he's got a hard on for MMA. He'd be front row at every event with his hands in his pants. He'd probably have his OWN damn version of the UFC or Pride.

    Those events are everything he advocated in martial arts: Evolution thru trial and error.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  10. Andy Kaufman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 5:53pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I cant believe that topics like this still exist. Its like people telling you the Earth really IS flat.

    As for Migo, hes just a fool. He'll never get laid. Its obvious.

    Nobody here takes the UFC as the 'end all be all' of martial arts. This is simply the year 2002. If you tell me that a certain technique works, then show me. There are many ways that someone can show mw how a technique works. Sorry to burst everybodys happy bubble, but the 'Masters' have been teaching unworkable techniques and flawed idea's for quite sometime. You want to know wy? Because nobody ever had the common sense to say "Prove it". They blindly accepted what was taught, just like the instructors before them. They took their training as FACT and LAW, and never for a moment questioned its effectiveness. The results were some viable technique surrounded unworkable movements and these movements were mistakenly thought of as effective.

    For someone to say that what happens in a contest with very few rules is '..not the street.' is ridiculous. If any of those 'Sport Fighters' wanted to fight your instructor with totally no rules your instructor would be in a very serious situation.

    Everyone screams BRUCE LEE! at the top of their lungs. Well Bruce Lee said that forms were a waste of time. If you think his advice is so valuable then why do you not listen to his advice? He also said that sparring was the ultimate test of ones abilities. What kind of sparring is more realistic than modern mixed martial arts?

    Wherever Bruce Lee is he's got a hard on for MMA. He'd be front row at every event with his hands in his pants. He'd probably have his OWN damn version of the UFC or Pride.

    Those events are everything he advocated in martial arts: Evolution thru trial and error.
    well said.
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