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  1. #21
    Solid's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Does he submit from the arm or the choke? It doesn't look like the arm is torqued that far back. Whiteshark, where are those wrestling pictures from?

  2. #22
    CrimsonTiger's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Trust me, that will tap you. It's harsh because your legs are much thicker than your arms in the traditional "key lock".

    If you "key lock" the far arm as well, it's basically an Iron Cross. I suppose "Key lock with legs" or "half Iron Cross" would be what I would know it as.

    I'm sure the Japanese name is something like what Ronin described. My japanese terminology sucks now. It's a nice move on newbs though, not so much on experienced people.

    The problem with Kesa gatame is GETTING there from a judo throw is easy, getting there from most other takedowns isn't...plus holding that arm is a lot easier with a gi sleeve to lock up. Slippery skin doesn't work so well. I could probably hold most of you with a gi on, that used to be a hold I could maintain on almost all of my seniors. (I couldn't GO anywhere with it, because my transitions weren't very good...but damn could I pin it! :D)
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine

  3. #23

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like Kesa gatame. It's got weaknesses like any position, but it's incredibly useful as a transition move when holding someone down. I'll move from side control to Kesa to reverse Kesa to north south, etc. You have to be careful to keep your arm underhooked on their arm to keep from getting the back taken (as mentioned earlier) and you also have to be very aware of where your weight is to keep from being bridged. If you keep moving though and trying for submissions it's very versatile and puts a lot of pressure on the opponent.

    I like going to Kesa right after a guard pass. It gets your legs out of the way when you sit your hips out and settles the person when your weight is brought onto their chest. I'll then transition to a regular side control by switching my hips back into position. Sometimes they'll fall right into a pillow choke when I do this.
    Last edited by katana; 9/01/2004 11:27pm at .

  4. #24

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Beatdown Richie
    > why doesn't BJJ like scarf hold? Just not enough options?
    I guess so. You have the two armbars, you can switch to arm triangle choke (kata gatame)... anything else?
    Here's a nasty neck crank I learned from a Bas Rutten book you can also try. I've only gotten this to work on guys my size or smaller. I have a problem getting the reach on bigger people:

    1) You are in regular kesa with right arm behind their neck. Your right leg is switched out and your right knee is almost touching their ear with your leg extended.

    2) With your right arm that is around their neck, grab your right knee either behind it (with no gi) or with Gi material. This will lock their head and left arm in place.

    3) Reach back with your left hand and wrap behind their right leg.

    4) Extend your right leg out (that is still being held by your right hand which is behind their neck) while pulling your left arm in and curling forward (you can grab your left leg to help). You'll crank the hell out of their neck.

    This technique is a lot riskier than what I like to do, but it's a fun thing to try. Just realize you'll be in a bad position if you lose control.
    Last edited by katana; 9/02/2004 11:24am at .

  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I learned that one from a wrestler recently, it does seem to work quite well against people who don't look out for it. However, I've got a few problems with it.

    1) When you hook your right hand on your leg and start looking for their leg, it's a signal for them to start shrimping out to get away.

    2) They throw their leg over your head and straighten their body out. This has the net effect of cranking MY neck and making several disturbing popping noises.

    Is this what you mean about bad position? :(

  6. #26

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Zeddy

    2) They throw their leg over your head and straighten their body out. This has the net effect of cranking MY neck and making several disturbing popping noises.

    Is this what you mean about bad position? :(
    Yeah. If you lose their head they'll also take your back easily. I don't claim it's the best thing to do. It's just something fun to try. It's definitely not on my short list of go to submissions.

  7. #27
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We call that submission a "time-hold". I think we gave it that name because once you get someone there, you can hold that position for as long as you want, with absolutely no effort.

  8. #28

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by J-Lau
    We call that submission a "time-hold". I think we gave it that name because once you get someone there, you can hold that position for as long as you want, with absolutely no effort.
    That's hilarious. It is kind of like a recliner isn't it? I never looked at it that way. I'm going to do it on someone tonight and act bored just to irritate them. :)

  9. #29
    Gringo Grande's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey White Shark...this is what I know from that position that bears relevance to what you are asking about.

    When you get the scarfhold (gi or no gi) you can go for the kimura by trapping the wrist under the knee closest to the should you are attacking. If you can't get the kimura or the guy is fighting it, I was taught to transition into an armbar using your legs only from that position while maintaining the scarfhold...and it works.

    Basically as someone pulls away from the kimura, they end up straightening their arm up and away...you trap the wrist under your leg FARTHEST away from the shoulder of the arm you are attacking. You bring the foot/ankle of your leg that has the arm trapped in close to your body and pull out with your leg like you were doing a butterfly stretch and push up with your other leg...it is pretty nasty. THEN...

    If you catch the wrist but it isn't tight or you don't have good scarf hold control, you can transition to a triangle from that hold...it is a pretty nice little sequence...I'll take pictures tomorrow and try and show the entire series step by step for you.

    Gringo Grande
    MMA Record vs Llamas 0-1-0
    (The Llama bit my junk but the ref didn't see it).

  10. #30

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Best move to apply from a "scarf hold" :

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