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  1. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 9:21am

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     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Matt W. I don't know about this idea that RBSD guys carry and are able to use lots of weapons.
    I don't know where this association of RBSD and weapons stated (Phil Sharp perhaps). Again, I can only speak for Blauer's material, but any RBSD training I've been exposed to talks about dealing with weapons but not packing them. Blauer's entire adrenal stuff goes counter to the idea of accessing and deploying a conceal weapon under duress.

    Originally posted by Matt W. No, what you always hear RBSDers talking about are things like "fighting dirty". Yeah, I guess they usually include carrying knives as a part of that, but... How many of them actually know how to use them with any proficiency?
    At least for Blauer the concept of fighting dirty means getting people beyond the stigma of using a sucker punch, being prepared to rake and claw the face and also to bite. Ironically it doesn't include groin strikes (or at least emphasize them) due to their relative lack of effect under duress.
    Originally posted by Matt W. The truth is, most RBSD guys either don't fight at all in their training, or if they do it is a really, really crappy form of MMA.
    If you're even in western NY I invite you to come down and check out our PDR (Personal Defense Readiness) class. I think you'll be surprised as to the level of fighting that goes down in that class.[/quote]
    Originally posted by Matt W. Either way, in the streets, a real MMA fighter would most likely own them.
    If we're talking a match I totally agree. But from a self defense perspective, with different goals... well see above post.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  2. punchingdummy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 9:41am

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     Style: TSK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Matt W.
    I don't know about this idea that RBSD guys carry and are able to use lots of weapons. SUre they talk a good talk, but how many RBSD places have shooting ranges? No, what you always hear RBSDers talking about are things like "fighting dirty". Yeah, I guess they usually include carrying knives as a part of that, but... How many of them actually know how to use them with any proficiency?

    The truth is, most RBSD guys either don't fight at all in their training, or if they do it is a really, really crappy form of MMA. Either way, in the streets, a real MMA fighter would most likely own them. Individuals vary, of course, but we're talking in generalities here. And generally speaking, RBSD guys can't fight.

    Matt
    But you raise and important point: MMA fighters tend to train according to a certain set of rules regarding appropriate techniques and RMSD tend to include "dirty techniques". I believe average MMA figher has the edge on BSD, but he/she cannot get caught in the mental trap of expecting MMA type attackes. RBSD - even empty had - can hurt you.
  3. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 9:46am

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Matt,

    The goal isn't in question, the delivery system is. IMO, RBSD is flawed, not because they seek to stun and run, but because they do not teach the things that will equip them to do it. And that also means consent has no bearing either. Comments like the following puzzle me...

    However, if the MMA person tries to mug the RBSD person, then things may shift to the other side.
    If an RBSDer can't beat an MMA fighter in a match with rules to keep the fighters safe and when they know exactly waht to expect from the MMA guy, what on earth makes you think he'd be able to survive being jumped by one on the street? It takes basic fighting principles to win fights. If you don't train them, rules aren't going to matter.

    As for weapons, they sure do spend a lot of time talking about them, but I question how good they are at fighting with them. I suspect they train their weapons the same way they train their unarmed fighting.

    I'd love to try an RBSD place. I'm in Orlando. If you know anyone down my way, let me know.
  4. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 10:46am

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     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Matt W.
    Matt,

    The goal isn't in question, the delivery system is. IMO, RBSD is flawed, not because they seek to stun and run, but because they do not teach the things that will equip them to do it.
    Again I can only comment on the system that I've been exposed to. I think Blauer's material is top notch and at different times have seen different coaches from his program demonstrate the material under pressure. But you're right Delivery system is everything.

    Originally posted by Matt W.
    If an RBSDer can't beat an MMA fighter in a match with rules to keep the fighters safe and when they know exactly waht to expect from the MMA guy, what on earth makes you think he'd be able to survive being jumped by one on the street?
    But getting jumped on the street isn't often how a confrontation happens. That's the big thing. A RBSD system, at least a good one, plays the lay of averages and begins with the most common forms of street attacks. And begins by addressing all phases of a confrontation:
    1. Emotional
    2. Verbal/Psychological
    3. Physical
    I think we all fall into the myth that the avereage street attack begins with some linebacker coming out of the bushes and tackling his victim with intent to do things that they write about on those "special webpages" Ronin visits.

    That isn't the case. There is a preconfrontation ritual that *usually*, note usually, occurs. And that's where a good RBSD program starts.

    So they're gearing for the inital confrontation. And setting up the stun and run.

    Originally posted by Matt W.
    It takes basic fighting principles to win fights. If you don't train them, rules aren't going to matter.
    Agreed. No question. No arguement. And at least at our school they are constantly working basic boxing, grappling, bag work and pain management. Along with some of the more specialized skills like verbal defusion.

    Originally posted by Matt W.
    As for weapons, they sure do spend a lot of time talking about them, but I question how good they are at fighting with them. I suspect they train their weapons the same way they train their unarmed fighting.
    Again, I'll have to fall back on Blauer's material. They address things like environmental weapons. But anyone who thinks that a conceal weapon is a panacea for self defense is deluded. Blauer's material is primarily H2H for good reason.
    Originally posted by Matt W.
    I'd love to try an RBSD place. I'm in Orlando. If you know anyone down my way, let me know.
    Not off the top of my head. Joe Mullings in Jupiter, Fla is a Pro Blauer Coach. I know Florida's a big state so that may be useless. But I'd imagine he's pretty good and could probably address your issues better than I can.

    What I personally dig about Blauer's stuff is it does integrate well with existing training. The big thing with PRD is establishing a point of dominance where you can better access your existing skills.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  5. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 10:50am

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     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by punchingdummy
    But you raise and important point: MMA fighters tend to train according to a certain set of rules regarding appropriate techniques and RMSD tend to include "dirty techniques". I believe average MMA figher has the edge on BSD, but he/she cannot get caught in the mental trap of expecting MMA type attackes. RBSD - even empty had - can hurt you.
    I honestly don't buy into the MMA don't practice dirty techniques so they won't use them arguement. As for we are all most comfortable fighting against people who fight like us, that's true of all Martial Arts. It's just a function that all of our canon fodder tends to be trained by the same folks and therefore reacts the same way. This is why cross training is essential. And it's something we all need to be aware of.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  6. The Crack Taoist is offline

    I got an axe to grind

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 12:46pm

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     Style: thai.kali.no-gi.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Matt W.
    I don't know about this idea that RBSD guys carry and are able to use lots of weapons. SUre they talk a good talk, but how many RBSD places have shooting ranges? No, what you always hear RBSDers talking about are things like "fighting dirty". Yeah, I guess they usually include carrying knives as a part of that, but... How many of them actually know how to use them with any proficiency?

    The truth is, most RBSD guys either don't fight at all in their training, or if they do it is a really, really crappy form of MMA. Either way, in the streets, a real MMA fighter would most likely own them. Individuals vary, of course, but we're talking in generalities here. And generally speaking, RBSD guys can't fight.

    Matt
    Matt,
    I dunno if I'm doing RBMA.
    I ALWAYS carry. Period. I have a Bowen. It will pass
    normal searchs (I can even remove the belt as long
    as it doesn't have a close inspection). Metal detector
    wands go off, but it's "just a metal buckle". I've taken it
    into clubs before with detectors. God help someone
    if I "punch" them with it. Plus a tactical folder and a
    backup knife (which I'm still swapping around).
    I have a .22 mini-revolver. If I'm in a dangerous
    area I start carrying more ****. All my stuff (unless
    I'm in "This means War" mode I can wear to my parents
    and they'd never notice.) . I'm not planning on boxing
    if **** hits the fan, I'll cut, shoot and RUN. I'm a LARGO
    guy :)
    Do I know how to use my stuff? Well I haven't waged any
    urban wars but short of that.. I think I have the general
    idea.

    The important point to consider here is this

    RBMA are meant to be SMALL SKILLSETS quickly imparted
    to the average untrained joe. MMA are quicker than TMA
    (and more effective usually) but they are still a learning
    curve. Look in "Kill or Be Killed", it says basically boxing
    is something one should learn ASAP, but it may take
    up to 6 months to learn to deliver a KO with either fist.
    So *in the meantime* here's dirty tricks....
    All the old school RBMA and many of the new ones are
    Boxers and Judoka after all. It's not their fault fat slobs
    have invaded their systems.

    Is this RBMA? I like to think so. I think all MMA peeps
    who want to be "street lethal" should visit the range once
    a month, take 10 FMA seminars, and study fairbairn.
    It's good for you.
    let's talk about why fat-fu shall we?
  7. The Crack Taoist is offline

    I got an axe to grind

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 12:49pm

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     Style: thai.kali.no-gi.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Matt Bernius
    I honestly don't buy into the MMA don't practice dirty techniques so they won't use them arguement.

    - Matt
    I don't buy the argument either.. it's horseshit.
    The precursors of RBMA all were boxers, wrestlers,
    and judoka (i.e. MMAists before such existed).

    And they did knife work, combat shooting, and
    invented "quick and easy" dirty tricks to teach recruits
    when they didn't have enough time to give them good
    boxing let alone judo.
    let's talk about why fat-fu shall we?
  8. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 1:37pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Matt,

    First, if I come off as being especially harsh towards RBSD, don't take it personally. But I have followed, or been a part of several flame wars over RBSDers, including Perkins, Sammy Franco, the people at The Martialist, Dan Webre and some others. I have yet to encounter one RBSD system/instructor that is not how I have previously described. They over-rely on dirty tricks, claim to "spar hard" but in actuality do MMA-lite or nothing at all, and end up teaching stuff (E.G. takedown defenses) that is actually unworkable. You seem reasonable, but I'm afraid I just haven't seen or heard anything to change my opinion that all RBSD is like what I've encountered.

    But getting jumped on the street isn't often how a confrontation happens. That's the big thing. A RBSD system, at least a good one, plays the lay of averages and begins with the most common forms of street attacks. And begins by addressing all phases of a confrontation:
    1. Emotional
    2. Verbal/Psychological
    3. Physical
    I think we all fall into the myth that the avereage street attack begins with some linebacker coming out of the bushes and tackling his victim with intent to do things that they write about on those "special webpages" Ronin visits.
    This is also one of the problems that I have with RBSD. Unless you are in a LE or military career where you are forced to deal with people and are prohibited from walking away, it just doesn't take much more than common sense to be able to learn and put into practice general safety tips on safety and crime avoidance. Attend a safety calss offered by your local PD and you'll be covered. I also think that it's pretty silly to spend any significant amount of time learning how "to not fight". You can teach simple avoidance techniques in about 5 minutes. There's simply no need for a civilian to spend hours learning "the fence"! Heh, heh. Just walk away, man. Anyone with a modicum of common sense can do this.

    Blauer's material is primarily H2H for good reason.
    Well, I know next to nothing about Blauer, but this is common in RBSD. When confronted by accusations about being able to fight, RBSD is all about avoidance, de-escalation, psychology and using weapons tactics. Yet, in the end, they spend most of their time talking about their deadly h2h skills which have nothing to do with avoidance, de-escalation, psychology and using weapons! No matter what they say about those other things, they all believe they are deadly street fighters.

    Jupiter's far, man. The only other RBSD around here is Krav Maga at the ATA TKD place. And when I talked to a guy from there he already admitted it was basically MMA-lite (they put on boxing gloves and some toher gear and "go at it").
  9. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 1:41pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DBH,

    I was with you for the most part up until Fairbain. I just don't like his material and I think there's a lot of better stuff out there.

    One question for you is how much time do you work on deployment/draws. The big issue I have with concealed weapons is that they take time to get to and often dexterity to use. I just don't trust anyone's ability to deploy under stress in close quarter combat (this goes doublely true for firearms with safetys).

    One thing that we used to practice with Pekiti is drawing and opening while being attacked. It's eye opening and really difficult.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  10. Strong Machine is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 9:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "But you raise and important point: MMA fighters tend to train according to a certain set of rules regarding appropriate techniques and RMSD tend to include "dirty techniques". "

    No, RBSD guys dont train at all.They sit around and discuss what they would do if set upon by thugs(aka black people) or terrorists (aka any non-black minority).
    Kicking a guy wearing what appears to be a deep sea diving outfit where his nuts would be if he were normally clothed isn't training.
    It's spiritual masturbation.

    RBSD is **** for the same reason the Jujutsu styles in 1880's japan that faced judo in challange matches were ****.For the same reason these "street lethal" martial artists that were gonna beat mere wrasslers in the first few UFC's(before they decided they couldn't win because the rules..."yeah THATS THE TICKET, THE RULES KEPT US FROM WINNING".)
    Remember Ranger Stott? Well, no one else does.

    Through sparring one develops strength, toughness, endurance, timing, balance, technique, courage, will power etc etc etc.

    Through "situational drills" one develops only ones waistline and ones carefully concocted self-delusions of badassedness.

    As exhibit A I offer Peyton Quinn and Bradley Steiner.(RMCAT and American Combato guru's respectively).These guys can't touch their toes, and haven't even seen them in years.
    If they could make it through the pre training warm-up at a MMA school I'd be shocked.

    As for "the RBSD guy would win cause he's armed".
    Well as long as we are getting real...lets get BRUTALLY real.
    If a sportFighter went over and goosed a RBSD guys girlfriend the RBSD guys "pre-situational awareness" would have already kicked in and he would have tripped his girlfriend as he ran out the door as the MMA guy walked over to them.
    THAT is the essense of self-defense.
    Bullshido has done the world a WONDERFUL service.
    I predict that the McThrowdown shall tear this RBSD fad to shreds.Except for a few wild-eyed holdouts who'll be hiding in their Idaho compound looking through a sniper scope for the negro that might be coming to rape their imaginary girlfriend.

    You'll knew it was coming didn't ya?
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