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  1. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 8:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think toughness is as important as experience. You could have street fighters who are experience in fighting and still kick the ass of those trained in the military. If you grew up in a ghetto you know the type. They might not have the discipline but they do have the street smarts and experince behind them.

    PEACE!
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  2. Dochter is offline

    Neutral, or nearly so

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 8:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Been awhile since I've visited the forums here, guess the supposed messages of various winter holidays just didn't take.

    As for this topic, give me a break.

    First off, just to be upfront, I've no personal military experience. However, my father was in the military for 42 years (all branches except navy and coast guard, ended up purple suit in defense intelligence) and my brother's an army officer. Additionally I have had the pleasure (sarcasm) of having two air force enlisted men as roommates in the not so distant past.

    From what I've seen from this experience and have heard from combined decades of military service leads me to conclude that any claims of greater inherent "toughness" or discipline in military personnel is a load of steaming she-it.

    As far as the toughness of boot camp, well that's relative by location (as said elsewhere) and if you're in any sort of reasonable shape and have any of the "indomitable spirit" proposed by most MA's you're not going to have a problem.

    Once you get past boot camp half of the jobs out there are essentially civilian jobs done in uniform. My Father once called the airforce (the branch he spent the most time in) no different than any business with the exception that the executives wear oddly adorned suits. In combat units I am fully willing to concede that conditions are a lot more demanding though.

    Even in combat units there is no reason to say that the individuals are inherently tougher, they may however be better trained and more used to hardship though.

    Above all else the notion that military men (and women) are more disciplined is the biggest load of crap. Discipline ends at the base exit. Go to any city with a base on a friday night and visit the bars and this will become wildly apparent. Worse go outside of a base in a foreign country and check out how the supposed "disciplined" individuals act.

    Soldiers are no more than and no less than normal folks, with one exception. They have chosen (for whatever reason) to serve their country through military service. I respect this choice greatly, and respect those that make this choice for this reason.




    **Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**
  3. Vargas is offline
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    The Man with No Neck

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 11:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, at the risk of sounding like a total jackass (wouldn't be the first time), I would like to throw in my personal take on this topic

    I've been a special ops helo guy for almost 10 years now. I've lived with special ops teams from the US Air Force, Navy, Army, British SAS, Australian SAS, ROK SF, Thai SF, etc. . . I was even lucky enough to train submissions with some SEALs overseas a couple of months ago. The only thing I can say about all those guys is that they don't like to give up or lose. At anything. Whatever the situation, they want to win. That right there gives them an edge when it comes to fighting. It doesn't mean they are ready for Pride or UFC, far from it, and it definitely doesn't confer any special skills or abilities. But it does make them more formidable than people that don't have that attitude (a lot of people claim to have it but we all know what talk is worth). I guess it could be qualified as self-discipline but it's more than that. They just hate to quit. Maybe that's all it is, a refusal to throw in the towel. This is different than the attitude of some inner-city gang-banger who's pissed off at the world. The Wastrel kind of touched on it when he talked about the 'endurance of privation and want'. Not many people can be starved, frozen, and/or sleep-deprived and still have high morale and mission focus. It has nothing to do with physical conditioning, it's all in the mind. The SEALs I knew told me all kinds of bizarre stories about collegiate swim champions and hard-core triathletes quitting BUDS after a week or two. They just couldn't stand being cold and miserable all the time.

    Now, that observation will not apply evenly across the military. I've been lucky enough to be around a pretty uncommon group of people and see for myself what the reality is, so my point of view might be a little skewed. But I would say, all things being equal, being an elite military guy gives an advantage when it comes to fighting. No idea if this applies to 'normal' military or LE. Nothing surprising about that.


    P.S. Dochter is right about one thing. Most of the U.S. Air Force is unfit for a combat environment (mentally, physically, it's all bad). Hell, we don't even have a service-wide physical fitness test. It's really quite pathetic.
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"
  4. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 12:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that Dochter echoes exactly the same things that I said in my post. It's not about being able to win at hand-to-hand. I think I was stressing that GOOD soldiers have a toughness that many people might have inside, but will never know until they have tested themselves under the conditions that Vargas and I have described. My point was that these things were entirely different. Was it Riddick Bowe who failed Marine basic? He could still probably kick some serious ass, but was he a good marine? Never. These things are incomparable. I don't think you'll find many soldiers trying to say that they are better at hand-to-hand fighting. One of my swan songs on this board has been exactly the opposite-don't believe those claims. What I do see is a lot of swaggering tough guys who think they know what it's like to be a soldier. What?!
    Vargas, I had to spend some time on an AF base with a lot of junior intelligence officers. We were talking with a butterbar one day and he asked us if we were going to be stationed in North or South Korea! Hmmm...we talked very slowly after that. I agree about MOST of the AF, but I think this stuff is for servicemen to say. Does that make sense? My brother is in the AF, but he's a Tac-P...

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  5. MartialArtist is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 12:39am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyone know the actual turnover rate of boot camp? With all due respect, if it's THAT rough, shouldn't there be a huge dropout rate? Or does the hardship forge the character inside most people? If so, why would boot camp be the only way this can be achieved? Obviously we hear about the guys who can't hack it, but what about the other side of the coin? You're telling me there are never guys who come in and boot camp isn't "easy" (relatively) for them? These guys are already tough, boot camp is just icing on the cake. So where'd they get it from?

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale

    Edited by - CrimsonTiger on January 06 2003 10:57:44
    Boot camp is for the new recruits. They rarely go through any training, but boot camp IS tough.

    But like the person said, each branch is different. The Air Force has a pretty easy boot camp, and the Navy comes in 3rd. The Army is in 2nd, and Marine boot camp is the hardest one.

    It does push discipline on you. Nobody will let you quit. Quitting won't just be tolerated at boot camp. You do, and it won't look good on anything, from your job resumes and that is the least of your worries.

    To be an Army Ranger takes lots of training. The elite groups, from the Green Berets to the SEALs, they have to go through hell.

    Most people don't get great teaching until later, from muay thai to hapkido, to wing chun to boxing. They have lots of guest teachers like Ken Shamrock, William Cheung, the Gracies, etc. But that doesn't make you tough.
  6. MartialArtist is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 12:40am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And no, the military doesn't make you violent. It disciplines you, makes you feel fear and pain and anger to let everything out so it won't get in the way later (although it will), and the ability to hold your tongue. The same can be true for MA. MA doesn't make you violent now, does it?
  7. MartialArtist is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 12:50am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, at the risk of sounding like a total jackass (wouldn't be the first time), I would like to throw in my personal take on this topic

    I've been a special ops helo guy for almost 10 years now. I've lived with special ops teams from the US Air Force, Navy, Army, British SAS, Australian SAS, ROK SF, Thai SF, etc. . . I was even lucky enough to train submissions with some SEALs overseas a couple of months ago. The only thing I can say about all those guys is that they don't like to give up or lose. At anything. Whatever the situation, they want to win. That right there gives them an edge when it comes to fighting. It doesn't mean they are ready for Pride or UFC, far from it, and it definitely doesn't confer any special skills or abilities. But it does make them more formidable than people that don't have that attitude (a lot of people claim to have it but we all know what talk is worth). I guess it could be qualified as self-discipline but it's more than that. They just hate to quit. Maybe that's all it is, a refusal to throw in the towel. This is different than the attitude of some inner-city gang-banger who's pissed off at the world. The Wastrel kind of touched on it when he talked about the 'endurance of privation and want'. Not many people can be starved, frozen, and/or sleep-deprived and still have high morale and mission focus. It has nothing to do with physical conditioning, it's all in the mind. The SEALs I knew told me all kinds of bizarre stories about collegiate swim champions and hard-core triathletes quitting BUDS after a week or two. They just couldn't stand being cold and miserable all the time.

    Now, that observation will not apply evenly across the military. I've been lucky enough to be around a pretty uncommon group of people and see for myself what the reality is, so my point of view might be a little skewed. But I would say, all things being equal, being an elite military guy gives an advantage when it comes to fighting. No idea if this applies to 'normal' military or LE. Nothing surprising about that.


    P.S. Dochter is right about one thing. Most of the U.S. Air Force is unfit for a combat environment (mentally, physically, it's all bad). Hell, we don't even have a service-wide physical fitness test. It's really quite pathetic.







    That is true, the driving force. Although many are good competitors and have good sportsmanship, they like to keep on going until they beat everyone else.

    Have you ever seen a three-finger pushup contest in the military? I have, and at the same time, they have chin competitions, to how long you can ride a log, and other stupid, juvenille competitions.

    I would also like to praise the British SAS. Most Americans go, "Oh, just the British." However, many are better trained than a lot of SEALs (although percentage wise, I am not so sure), and their counter-terrorist unit and their snipers are of the best in the world. The Austrailian SAS isn't that bad either.

    The Russian and North Korean armies are rated to be one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the world. The North Koreans especially, because that is all they basically do. I'm not a supporter of Kim from NK, or the Communist nation, but their martial training is like lightning and thunder. The soldiers won't excel in the UFC, but in self-defense situations, they can take most the UFC guys out. Period. The Russian military in general is also very tough. They focus a lot on mental stamina, and a lot of survival training such as having only 50 pounds of gear while dropped in Siberia.

    It's the mental will.
  8. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 1:25am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    NK SOF are no joke, but it's not because of their martial arts training. Let's please stop comparing apples with oranges.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  9. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 5:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >I think you're job has very little to do with who is tougher.

    You think so? Many will disagree. Certain jobs inspire a level of toughness higher than others. You think a CEO who spends his time in a office will be a good construction worker when he is not used to manual labor? Do you think the construction worker will handle the pressure of running a corporation?


    >The only thing I can say about all those guys is that they don't like to give up or lose.

    You got that right. We had a 'fight club' when I was in Kosovo in '01 most of the members were elite soldiers from different countries (Greece, Russian, US, Italian) it was all for fun and to releive stress but MAN did we brawl.

    >To be an Army Ranger takes lots of training

    Naw just two and a half months of HELL!

    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    RAAAAAAR! Fear the Tiger!

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2003 12:43pm

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for all the feedback guys. I was a bit uncertain about asking this particular inflammatory question on this site (seeing as I'm still a relative newbie here) but I just had to know some other peoples' views.

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
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