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  1. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    RAAAAAAR! Fear the Tiger!

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2003 9:31pm

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, this is prompted from my discussion with The Wastrel in another thread. Many military and law-enforcement personnel seem to be involved in the martial arts...usually enjoying both the martial and health aspects. Then you have the martial arts types who behave as if being a martial artist (even a bb) makes them the same "type". Sometimes the military men "look down" on non-military as lesser men...which simply exacerbates the problems.

    My question is this...is one really tougher than the other? Assuming both train hard and are serious about their arts...do the professional "warriors" still hold an edge? If so, why? Most of them have never seen battle, and "their" way isn't the only way to test yourself against difficulty and adversity.

    I'm asking this for discussion, not so we can piss all over each other. I've never served, and I'm not a violent, angry man. But I definitely consider myself mentally and physically stronger than most people. I've been tested and hardened physically, emotionally, mentally over tests and trials...mainly those of my chosing, but far more rigorous than many others would ever attempt.

    So what about the rest of you, professional and amateur, warriors? Anyone with expriences or opinions to share?

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  2. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2003 10:23pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CrimsonTiger,
    I'm REALLY sorry you took my remarks that way. I think I posted a follow-up that might have explained what I meant a little better. I was entirely tongue in cheek. "Pogue" is military slang, that's why it would irritate me if a civilian called me that.
    In answer to your question...This is a toughie. There are a lot of different jobs in the military, and a lot of different types of people, but let's consider two sort of competent above average types.
    1. Varieties of toughness: I posted a quote on here from Napoleon to the effect that the most important attribute of a soldier is not bravery or competence (?) but endurance of fatigue. This gets to the heart of the matter, pardon the cliche. I have seen all kinds of "tough guys" crack under the most ridiculously normal situations.
    The military needs something very different. As I've said before, at a basic level, a soldier is no more than a man with a rifle. Sometimes he's a man with a rifle in a certain position. It doesn't matter how strong he is, or whether he can beat another man in unarmed combat. What matters is that he stays right where he's told no matter how tired, scared, or irritated he is; that he never falls asleep, and fights until he is no longer capable of fighting. No amount of fight training or marathons, or ice hockey or anything is going to prepare you to really be a soldier. One sad truth is that in our world, no modern western man can really learn about stress and deprivation without doing something like military service. Wasn't there a boxer that couldn't finish basic training? I think that someone could be a completely incompetent hand-to-hand fighter, but still be an EXCELLENT soldier, and also a very tough man. It's a combination of tenacity, taciturnity, laconicism and unflappable resolve. Some fighters are total primadonnas. That said, I think that my discussion would Vargas sheds light on the very real fact that not everyone in the services meets the standards of a real soldier.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  3. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2003 10:40pm

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel,

    I didn't take it that way. This stems more from people I've seen in various other settings, and some general comments here. Wasn't directed at you personally. Actually, you're one of the few who doesn't seem to "look down" from on high.

    But isn't that "endurance" you mention the same idea as the "strength of spirit" that is so commonly mentioned in the arts? It always sounded very similar to me.

    I understand that soldiers aren't hand-to-hand fighters. But my question wasn't so much one of technical skill as it was of spirit, endurance, mental stamina, discipline...what-have-you.

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  4. MartialArtist is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2003 10:45pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm from the military and from my experience...

    Military people are tougher and can defend themselves better UNLESS the person trains for COMBAT purposes only and none of the sport style stuff and trains just as hard.

    But still, the average marine still has the advantage over the average person because the marine usually has more discipline, is tougher mentally, is better conditioned, and is accurate with firearms.
  5. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2003 11:48pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nonsense, utter. Comparing the average Marine to the average person is so obviously irrelevant as to be ridiculous. He's talking about the emphemeral quality of "toughness".
    Tiger, the problem is that as much as those people think they have acquired it, they have never done anything to test that or discover the limits of their own strength of will. You didn't happen to this recent survivor did you? There was woman, a firefighter and all around tough broad, who literally COLLAPSED under the laughable pressures that she was forced to endure as a cast member on a reality TV show. She always thought she was one of those tough-minded people. They're the first to fall. My old platoon sergeant called them "the phony tough and the fake brave."

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  6. Fisting Kittens is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 1:15am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think you're job has very little to do with who is tougher. I've trained with cops and soldiers many many times in many different schools and once I trained with a former prison guard (man what an asshole that guy was). They were all just people. Some of em were good, some of em weren't. I've had my ass kicked by soldiers and cops, and I've totally fucking destroyed some too. One of my friends is a computer programmer and he eats the military dipshits for breakfast when we're training. All in all they're just people. I hope they don't think they're special because of what they do for a living.
  7. MartialArtist is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 2:08am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, they are all people.

    But Wastrel is right that toughness is different where people break down under such extreme circumstances such as war or 9/11. But, it's not whether they believe they're tough minded. A teenager can think that they're tough minded and invincible. However, people in the military are tough. Not many people can survive boot camp in the Marines nonetheless even survive training for the elite.

    I don't think toughness is by what you think of yourself. Not at all. Toughness is based on your abilities, not your self-image although your self-image can play a part in it. But the toughest people are the silent ones that don't even care to think about evaluating how tough they are.

    Ever heard the saying that the military makes you silent? War makes people mute?

    Sure, they might be tough, but they don't want to think about it nor be all arrogant and cocky about it.
  8. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 2:09am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fisting, we're not talking about hand to hand, mano a mano, fighting ability. And "military dipshits"...come on. If they're dipshits, then they can't be really good soldiers.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

    Edited by - The Wastrel on January 06 2003 01:11:26
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  9. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 11:43am

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyone know the actual turnover rate of boot camp? With all due respect, if it's THAT rough, shouldn't there be a huge dropout rate? Or does the hardship forge the character inside most people? If so, why would boot camp be the only way this can be achieved? Obviously we hear about the guys who can't hack it, but what about the other side of the coin? You're telling me there are never guys who come in and boot camp isn't "easy" (relatively) for them? These guys are already tough, boot camp is just icing on the cake. So where'd they get it from?

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale

    Edited by - CrimsonTiger on January 06 2003 10:57:44
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  10. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/06/2003 11:49am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CrimsonTiger,
    First of all, I thought boot was foolishly easy. Another thing is, it all depends on the service. Some are easier than others. In the army, it even depends on the post. It's not boot that's tough, it's the career. Think about it. Things don't get easier after boot, they get MUCH tougher.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

    Edited by - The Wastrel on January 06 2003 10:50:25
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
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