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  1. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 5:44pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It seems I misunderstood what you meant by the doctrine. I thought you were opposed to looking at the history of a martial art because only the techniques themselves are effective. I tend to get most of my information on anatomy and physics from the doctrine of the martial arts that I study. Two knuckle puch works better because there is less surface are. This is a principle of the two knuckle punch, and is stated in the doctrine. I don't use it because it hurts me less to punch with three knuckles.

    You don't need TKD to know that kicking them on the chin will hurt them ot KO. True. Look a little deeper and you will find it is the act of dislocating the chin that is being aimed for, as this has a higher chance of causing a knockout. I can use that if I ever find myself in the position where the jaw is exposed, regardless of whether I have a technique to do the job or not.

    A study of anatomy, mechanics and physics will give you all the information you need. But theres a whole lot of material in those three subjects. I choose to use the information in the doctrine of the people who came before me.

    Rules for safety in competition. I agree. They are stupid. I think competitions are stupid. But they exist, so how far do you take the safety aspect? Do you allow kicks to the knees, because that can cause permenant injury? These questions are for someone else to sort out. I was just asking you not to treat the sport side like the
    martial art side.

    I'm not suprised you've never heard of an actual throat rip. I hope you never do. It's an exceptionally vicious thing to do to someone. Your neck is mostly made up of muscle, so I don't doubt it's possible, but you would need to be at that life or death point to pull it off, unless you are a complete psycho. I don't doubt MMA guys could do it.Hell, a 10 stone accountant could do it. But every tournament I've ever seen has ignored the fact that it is an option. Which is why I think competitions in martial arts are stupid.

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 6:14pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What did dislocating the jaw have anything to do with TKD? Its a kick to the jaw. If its open to attack, and using an attack that is ideal, has everything to do with sparring experince and knowledge of technique & application, and nothing with a specific art.

    While study of the arts is not something I'm against, its not required to be an effective fighter. Study of the theories of the time can provide insight into how the techniques evolved into what they are now, but we aren't restricted to those theories anymore. We can study for ourselves body mechanics, anatomy, and use physics to see what techniques do, which muscles to use for each technique, how to make the movements, and so forth. The interaction of the different arts has culled many ineffective techniques and stances. Trainers can do this and pass on technique to the fighter.

    Call me skeptic, but I like to see quantified evidence with theories. People like to knock the UFC, which is their right, because of rules. The UFC can't make money if its fighters are dead or crippled, can they?

    BTW - Throat ripping would require a lot of strength, and that the other person was unable to fight you. Muscle is extremely hard to just rip. Muscle and sinew is quite strong, considering its what the throatripper would be using himself. While I'm sure there are those that could do so, Why? They would be more likely to just crush the trachea. Or, use that physical ability in another technique. I don't see how not allowing something that I'm not sure is practical invalidates Martial Arts. You shouldn't need to tear someone's throat open to win, should you?

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. DrOctagon is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 6:29pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you ever worked in a morgue, like I did for 4 years, you would know that bodies are a HELLUVA lot more durable than certain traditional charlatans would have you believe.There aint no way you are using non eagle claw to pull flesh off a corpse that aint been rotting in the sun for a week.

    I hate my brother.
  4. redninja692001 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 6:30pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well of course someone isnt gonna do a kata in the UFC if they do they would get the shizza smashed out of them.I've seen tkd guys KO someone usualy with kicks not punches.and i've seen thai
    fighters mainly ko someone using punches or elbows
    then some fighters get their ass kicked by just not fighting back properly like the MUIY THAI vs TKD clip
  5. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 7:09pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've worked with dead bodies, but not human ones. It's the reason I think there is more strength in the human body than we realise. Bending the joints takes a lot of work. And the body isn't resisting you. If you could get someone fired up to the point where the typical pain threshholds no longer apply, don't you think that they can be just as difficult to work with?

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  6. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 7:57pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought I'd replied to this already. Oh well.

    Dislocating the jaw is the reason given in TKD for using certain strike to that area, like turning kick, knifehand etc. It's not exclusive to TKD. But it is mentioned in the TKD core texts. This information would not be available to me if I had ignored those texts and just studied the techniques and their applications. And it is information I would use in choosing between a strike to the jaw or one to the floating ribs if they were also an available target.

    Anatomy, physics and mechanics are useful. But the amount of time to learn what I need to from these just isn't available to me. So I use the texts to learn it instead. They are a source of information that shouldn't be overlooked. But if you have the time, those three areas are a better source of information.

    I'll assume the UFC comment is about the other post. My response should be over there.

    You shouldn't need to tear someones throat up to win. You shouldn't need to stick a knife in them either. But that is still an option, because people are evil. The throat is one of the easiest points on the body to do damage because it is so badly protected. I don't see it as going to far to expect a person who is willing to go so far as to try being incapable of succeeding.

    Besides, I seriously doubt you take anyone talking about ripping a throat out any more seriously than them saying they're going to shull**** you. They are both (in my opinion) possible. But are more suited to demonstrate the attitude of the person saying it. I'd be a lot more wary of someone saying "I'm going to rip your throat out" than someone saying "I'm going to punch you in the throat".

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  7. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 12:02am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What you are referring to, a desired effect from a techinque on a certain target, is part of knowledge of the technique. I don't think that the art itself exclusively is the source of theory regarding this. Anyone who knows about hooks, or high roundhouses, knows that you can do that (dislocate), or KO, break it. Technique choice is more about doing the most possible damage without leaving yourself open to counter attack, or you can gamble on something more effective at the cost of leaving yourself open. Or fient, combo, ect. I don't see how you need to know the art to know that you can do this to this body part with this techinque, thats knowledge of the technique.
    Nobody sets out to do this particular attack, they set out to fight effectively and win. A plan is a good way to loose.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  8. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 2:10pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isn't the art the collection of the knowledge of techniques you are referring to? I agree that the art isn't an exclusive source of information regarding it's techniques. But it is still a source of information and shouldn't be overlooked as such.

    A plan is a good way to lose. Whole different debate.

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  9. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 3:11pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thats exactly what I'm trying to get at. The "art", while a collection of knowledge and techniques, is incomplete. Why take multiple arts when all you really need are the techniques? The knowledge behind the techniques is part of knowledge of the technique. I didn't say that that should be left out, if it were the training could be ineffective. Overlooking what is already known is foolish, I agree. But some theories the arts have about the ideal way to win a fight through their art are ridiculous. To cite something I'm sure several have before, TKD's no head punch rule is a severe limitation. Why worry more about "you should keep them at bay with kicks"? If you have the opening, then by all means take it. Its restrictive rules such as these combined with unwillingness to change that limit so many arts.

    Regarding "A plan is a good way to lose", it sounded like your plan is to dislocate the jaw. I probably misunderstood what you said.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  10. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2002 4:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nihilanthic, what do you practice then (are you more fightingsports or tma)?

    Also I understand that a KF and karate punch can have simila/the same effect as boxing/MT, but in genearl I think you get a better idea of impact apoun punching, as well as how to use you body weight the most efficiently. Mostly importantly how to connect and setup you punches. Same with the kicks..
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
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