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  1. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 1:43pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There seems to be a general misunderstanding in the difference between the sports aspect of a Martial art and the self defense aspect. They are not the same thing. Some types of TKD allow punces to the face in the sport. Others don't. But in all of them the move is in the forms and the self defense aspect. Look closely enough and you will also find elbows, knees, eye gouges and groin strikes. But these aren't in the sport and therefore aren't seen by outsiders to the art. And it's not just Tae Kwon Do. It's the same with most styles. Take Sambo. You'd be hard pressed to find a headbutt in a sport Sambo match but that doesn't mean it isn't taught.

    But I also have a problem with strict doctrine in Martial Arts. An art isn't, or shouldn't be, the sum of it's techniques. The principles behind the style allow a much greater understanding of the art. But people ignore the principles of a style and think that because they learnt a few techniques they understand it.

    All in all, I'm of the opinion that the greatest style of all is unnamed but can be summed up in two words. Whatever. Hurts.

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  2. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 3:26pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Um, Its Nihilanthic, not Nilistic, and I'm not a nihilist either. My nick is just a nick, that just happens to sound like Nihilistic

    My point, that everone missed, is that you don't have to call it "boxing" to throw a jab, cross, hook, or whatever. You don't have to call it Muay Thai to shin kick. Many arts have the same techniques! Effective training doesn't have to be in a dojo or dojang to learn the techniques. Yes, they've figured out many of the techniques for us. Many 'arts' have also came up with plenty of ineffective ones too. Just take what works and use that. Principles behind the art are the limitation. I never said you understand the art by knowing the techniques. There are the principles behind it, and the physical application of them, the techniques. Why should I follow the principles of some other person who is likely dead? Why not create my own?
    Why should we have to follow their philosophy?

    Bottom line, if I know techniques and how to use them, its irrelevant if I understand or respect any art at all. Why think "these arts have these ways to deal with this attack"? Think - "I know these techniques, I'll use the most effective one".

    Forgot to include this - I don't mean that you'd just learn all the techinques at once. Thats a stupid thought. In a method that is technique based you'd learn techniques, starting from the basics, going to more advanced ones, and how to apply them. In EVERYTHING with techniques that there is, you start with basics and move up. You just don't have to divide the techniques into different arts. I made the comment to include EFFECTIVE TRAINING at least once, which many arts lack

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

    Edited by - Nihilanthic on July 27 2002 15:34:07
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  3. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:09pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You shouldn't have to follow the philosophy of any martial artist. You shouldn't have to follow the principles of a dead man. But you should follow the principle behind a technique you are using. A punch is a punch is a punch. But if you know what the punch is for and what it's supposed to do you can use it a lot more effectivly. In a situation where you can use a punch or a knifehand, how do you decide which is most effective? This is the purpose of understanding the principles of a technique. The principle behind a move underlines it's usefulness. In the end if you don't agree with the principle behind a move you will find the move useless.

    I agree that many arts have many useless moves, and many share the same basics. But a lot of people are going to disagree on which moves are useless because some will find it easier to understand the principles behind one move than another. Taking all the most effective techniqes from each art will produce the most effective art for you. But if you decide to teach anyone, you may have left out a technique they could have seen a use for.

    To sum up. It's the principles that make a technique work, not the technique itself. If you understand the principles of techniques that you use, it becomes easier to apply techniques and improvise new ones that suit your immediate needs.

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  4. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:28pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol sorry misread, doh.

    It does matter where it's from so you can learn it from that art or from something which incorporates that art...To use them you almost definitely have to practice them against a resisting opponent.

    And the best "street" "selfdefence" techniques using no weapons? If you can't run /talk your way out the best technique is to learn to hit hard and first (or at least that's one of the things Geoff Thompson Teaches.) To use your moves in the ring is the safest place to properly execute them.



    Edited by - Blade Windu on July 27 2002 16:31:59
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  5. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:30pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Principles behind techniques are part of effective training. But like I said in the first post, techniques are basically universal. We all have the same body archetype, joints that go certain ways, ect. But what do you mean by "principles of techniques", exactly? Different techniques for different situations? Its not effective training if you lean the mechanical part of a technique, and not when to use it. Simply knowing techniques isn't knowing proper application. Thats a big problem with McDojos. You don't need to know the context of the art to know how to use the technique, you need training, sparring, and experience. Its probably a good idea to have different training sessions for different things... sometimes grappling, sometimes working the clinch, stand-up, and transitioning between them, for example. That is effective training.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  6. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They;r enot universal - the way in which a Karate or Kungfu punch is taught is far different from that of a Boxer's or Mauy thai practitionser's (those two have slightly different technqiues due to the different trikes allowed.)

    "Its not effective training if you lean the mechanical part of a technique, and not when to use it. Simply knowing techniques isn't knowing proper application. Thats a big problem with McDojos." - agreed, and with the sentence after, but practising them all together is the very best I should think.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  7. sicksicksick is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:42pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    By principle of technique I mean understand not just how to throw a punch and when to throw a punch, but what the punch does and why it does it. Every situation you find yourself in will be slightly different, and while most general applications of the techniques will cover most of the situations, it will not cover them all. You may find yourself in a situation you've never been in before. You'll need to improvise. Here's where the principle behind the technique comes in useful. You will essentially be creating your own move using what you know about the techniques you have. This is especially apparrent in Aikido.

    I agree with you on effective training by the way. I just don't think that knowing how to use a technique and when to use it is enough. You also need to know why it works. This is the stuff you often find in the context of the arts. You don't have to follow the man's philosophy, but studying it may explain why his methods worked for him, and this may help make them work better for you.

    -----
    Traditional Martial Artist. As in I don't expect to fight in cages where I can't just poke them in the eye and rip their throat out.
    Mixed Martial Artist. As in I study more than one style and mix them together.
  8. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There aren't reall very many special or certain technqiues for many situtaions, you jusy have to use what works for you because you;ve done it to some1 before with effect.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
  9. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 4:57pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Karate / KF and Boxing/MT do have similar punches. Jab/cross is like the linear strikes in K/KF. K/KF lacks hooks, however a style of KF might have them. I'm not going to pretend I know all the techniques from kung fu, because I do not. The stance taken may be different, where the punch comes from. I consider stance a technique, also. Another thing, is the 2 knuckle vs 3 knuckle difference. Thats basically preference, though I'd like to see how you could do a 2 knuckle hook. And regarding all the kinds of punches, not all are effective.

    Regarding rules allowing what kind of strikes are allowed... Those artificial rules are ridiculous.
    Beyond rules for safety in competition (like, not stamping on someone's temple with your heel when they're down, eyegouging, among others, its stupid.

    While I'm on a rant, I might as well rebute people saying "A <art> Master would rip <mma guy>'s throat out". If it were allowed, and if it were actually possible (I've yet to hear of an actual throat rip) I'm sure <mma guy> could do the same. People are people! muscles can only pull with so much force, bones can only get so strong, even with conditioning. MMA practicioners can learn everything you do, too! MMA practicioners also tend to be somewhat conditioned, giving them strong hands, wrists, and forearms for the throat rip! I am also equally sick of hearing that blah blah master foofoo doesn't need to learn ground fighting because he'd kill you with a single strike or whatever. Save the stories for little kids that belive in them.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  10. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2002 5:11pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "I agree with you on effective training by the way. I just don't think that knowing how to use a technique and when to use it is enough. You also need to know why it works. This is the stuff you often find in the context of the arts."

    Um, what? I'm fairly sure you can understand why this movement has this effect without ever stepping foot in a school of its origin. Hmm... he is open to this technique, which I perform. Why did it work? Because if it were a strike, it would cause a damaging impact. If it were a hold, it immobilized the opponent. If it were a submission, it would potentially break a joint. If it were a choke, it would render them unconscious, if it were a takedown, it would put me in an advantageous position.

    I really don't see your point here. It works because it had the desired effect. I don't need TKD to know kicking someone in the chin will hurt them, or KO. I don't need MT to see how slinging a shin into a thigh can make said thigh sore, stiff, and the owner of that thigh immobile, if not eager to stop fighting. I don't need JiuJutsu to understand bending a joint the wrong way is bad, and that chokes can make you go to sleep. Physics, mechanics, and anatomy do that well.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
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