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  1. katana is offline

    Capitalist Pig

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2004 11:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, no-gi, boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Lexan Bullet Resistant Glass

    Great article. Just to add to your comments on Lexan, here is my opinion:

    I used to apply shatter proof glazings to windows as part of my job and did installations that involved Lexan windows to prevent storefront smash and grab attacks. We also did installations to protect homes and businesses from burglary at window locations that were poorly protected and couldn't use window bars for aesthetic reasons. I can say without any doubt that there is simply no way you could shatter a piece of bullet-reisistant Lexan material with your bare hands. I don't even think it can be done with 1/4" thick pieces of the material that we installed as window replacements. Those windows could resist rocks, bricks, chains, baseball bats, and all manner of other hand-wielded blunt objects you can think of (and believe me we tried it all to test the stuff). A fist against that material would do nothing at all.

    Going further, a friend of mine worked in a building where they were closing a bank. He mentioned to me that they were throwing out sheets of bullet-resistant Lexan used in the bank lobby (about 1" thick). If you know how very expensive Lexan is, especially at thicknesses to stop a bullet, you understand that this is a really big deal. So he picked a few pieces about 2x2 ft. in size. We took these sheets out onto a farm and performed some tests with our own firearms. The results:

    A .22 caliber rifle left small dents in the material with no cracking visible to the human eye.

    A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 Buckshot left small dents in the material with no cracking visible.

    A 9mm pistol left a dent in the material with a few very small spider cracks at point of impact. The 2x2 sheets could take numerous 9mm shots with no significant cracking though.

    A .44 Magnum pistol cracked the material significantly, but did not penetrate. Again multiple shots were fired and none penetrated.

    A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs significantly cracked the material, but again penetration did not occur.

    A .30-06 hunting rifle penetrated the material, however cracking was still very well contained. The bullet's velocity was obviously affected, but we could not recover the projectile to assess what happened.

    In summary: Lexan is amazing. If someone is wielding a standard pistol caliber or shotgun in a bank I'd feel very safe standing behind this stuff.

    So basically there is simply no possible way that someone is going to break Lexan with their bare hands. I could possibly see it done on regular (thin) Plexiglas simply because it is relatively brittle, but Lexan? In my opinion a 12 Gauge shotgun loaded with slugs couldn't do it and a .44 Magnum couldn't do it. So unless you hit harder than those, you aren't going to break it.
    Last edited by katana; 8/24/2004 11:34pm at .
  2. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2004 9:38am

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

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    So, I guess the moral is if you're gonna rob a bank you'd better use .30-.06.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  3. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2004 7:48pm

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Kanata, out of curiousity how far away were you guys from the Lexan when you were firing at it?
  4. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2004 8:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Run that through spell check and then repost it.
  5. katana is offline

    Capitalist Pig

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 12:51am

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    Originally posted by Samuel Browning
    Kanata, out of curiousity how far away were you guys from the Lexan when you were firing at it?
    We were probably about 20-30 ft. back for most of it. Being any closer probably wouldn't contribute that much to the outcome.

    We erected a makeshift barrier to crouch behind while doing this because we didn't know what would happen (ricochet, flying fragments, etc.). Also I should add that while we supported the Lexan as best we could in the field, it was not in a proper mounting as required by the manufacturer for full protection. Again though, I highly doubt anyone is breaking bullet-resistant Lexan with their bare hands.

    Here is a great video from GE's Lexan Polymer group showing you exactly what this stuff is capable of withstanding (gunshots, axes, etc.):

    http://www.insulgard.com/Media/Insulgard.mpg
    Last edited by katana; 8/27/2004 1:18am at .
  6. DuckofDeath is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2004 7:14pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Glass not hit back!

    I'm curious about the photo of the pane of bullet proof glass with the circled smudge from a 9mm bullet impact as shown in the photo insert section of The Secret Man. Did Dux have a pane of glass popped with a 9mm onstage to show that it was indeed bullet proof? If so, did he punch that same pane that might have been weakened by the bullet impact? Or did he use another identical pane for the break?

    I bring this up because on the now defunct Dux Forum, someone had brought up the subject of "one way" bullet proof glass. This type of bullet proof glass--or whatever kind of transparent substance it is--is laminated in such a way that one side is bullet-resistant and the other not, enabling the protected party behind the glass to return fire through the glass at the assailant. Pop one pane on the bullet resistant side with a 9mm, then put your fist through the non-bullet resistant side of the other pane. Hey, you've broken bullet proof glass!

    Another possibility is using a doctored light-loaded 9mm round that might not be able to break a pane of regular plexiglass that can be broken with a punch. Hey, it was a doctored cartridge, but the bullet didn't break the plexiglass, so the plexiglass was "bullet proof"!

    One poster on the Dux Forum who seemed to know what went on with the "Bercy Break" said that Dux put the pane of "bullet proof glass" in some kind of mechanical press to weaken the center section of it.
  7. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2004 5:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For a demonstration in Europe I seriously doubt that Dux could have discharged firearms on stage.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  8. kemosave is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2004 1:44pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice.
  9. callmetrinity is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2004 4:30am


     Style: Various

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    Damn, I though i was into artcile creating and research-geez
  10. perdido88 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/31/2004 10:51pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    very nice work indeed. I had a feeling about Frank Dux. He tied the noose around his neck when he wrote (or did he?) his autobiography: The Secret Man. I bought it thinking it would be a great insight into the martial arts. but hey, what an insight! He went on and on about how great he was at everything. As I read through the book, I could not help but think about how fake everything was.

    it is not evil to "attack" someone behind a keyboard if the truth is told. Besides, no forum has a clause that you have to believe what its written. You have to do your research and find out if its true or not. This is the type of thing that is necessary in the martial arts.
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