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  1. elipson is offline
    elipson's Avatar

    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    2/04/2003 11:34pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was jsut thinking that we need more info on non-asian martial arts. Things from Europe or Africa. I've heard of a portugeuse stick fighting art, and all kinds of arts in africa. There should be more info on this stuff.

    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
    -Ghandi
  2. Fisting Kittens is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 12:04am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most non-asian hand to hand martial arts are "rediscoveries." Meaning they never existed but people wanna pretend that they have this tradition. Of course there are exceptions like Savate, but most cultures never developed ways of fighting without weapons (well they didn't develop them to the point I would call them martial arts.)
    As for weapon arts: Well, the asians were REALLY scarily into tradition so they maintained their fighting ways long after they became obsolete. Other cultures viewed fighting as a means of winning wars, and so they abandoned obsolete arts in favor of cutting edge arts, and then guns trumped ALL the arts. So their original fighthing methods weren't preserved. Of course everyone wants a piece of the pie, so you'll here about "authentic african tribal arts" that no one has actually practiced in 100 years and some dude created to either cash in or make up some new black heritage (kwanza anyone?)

    Now is where everyone flames away and says 'No way dude, I've fucking SEEN african lion fist style. its real!' well whatever, you're all gonna believe whatever you want to anyway.
  3. Stold2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 12:37am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The idea that all asians are scarily traditional is kinda silly. When Japan made contact with spain through trade, it didn't take long for Samurai to start using rifles. Strangely enough the samurai still wore their traditional daisho(swords).

    If that's not adapting, I dunno what is.
  4. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 12:50am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fisting Kittens:

    Before you open up your mouth about European fighting methods, you might consider that that Europeans would have never, as a group, conquered as much of the world as they did if they did not have an equal or greater footing in combat. Technology is always an advantage, but you have to face it that military technology advances the fastest whenever there is war... and Europe has seen more wars than most other regions in the world. At some point in time, they were no more advanced than any other group of people, yet due to the large number of conflicts, as a result of the relatively dense population, they progressed beyond any other group.

    Despite the fact that the printing press came too late for most European fighting methods, we still know about German sword and buckler techniques from the 13th century through a historical manuscript. Fiore Dei Liberi da Premmariacco wrote "Flos Duellatorum in Armis" ("The Flower of Battle") around 1400. It showed just how complete a combat method that Europeans had, covering armed, unarmed, foot, and mounted combat. Striking and grappling. Every single basic weapon from spear to sword. Later, Hans Talhoffer penned a fechtbuch, likewise a treatise on both armed and unarmed combat. The French had both Savate and Chausson. One for the streets and the other for the docks and ships. Lutte was a vicious grappling art (both stand-up and on the ground)... sportified into "Greco-Roman" wrestling and freestyle. Now all three are only found in Danse de Rue Savate which might disappear itself. The Spanish had an even older cousin called Zipota. The Spanish were also the first (and perhaps only) known Europeans to fully apply science to personal combat, which they termed Destreza ("The True Knowledge/Science") which was used for mostly fighting with the sword, but also discussed its use in unarmed combat. Carranza, Del La Vega, Narvaez, Rada, Tamariz, and Thibault all wrote about the Spanish method... which was heavily influenced by the Romans. Rome had its version of Greek Pankration... literally copied and taught by Greeks. As for Pankration itself, we only know it by its Olympic category name. Boxing, Wrestling/Lutte, and, possibly, Zipota/Savate/Chausson owe much to the Romans and Greeks. It's a chain that stretches back to the earliest Fertile Crescent civilizations.

    So, don't write off the European arts. With the exception of Boxing, Savate, and Wrestling, most are merely academic studies... because the firearm is the most effective personal weapon in common use today, followed by the knife.
  5. Fisting Kittens is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 2:03am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sheol I know you can read so I'm wondering why you didn't read my post. I said that the arts of the asians were preserved because of their freaky worship of tradition. The European arts aren't practiced AT ALL because people moved on to newer and better methods (guns, guns, and more guns).

    I never said they don't have them. Jesus Christ one of my majors is history with a concentration in military history. I spend WAY too much time learning about european fighting methods to pretend they don't have them. My point is you won't find many authentic non-asian martial arts being practiced because the majority of them are extinct or as you said, academic studies.


    Stold: Did I say the asians don't adapt? No, I said they preserved their arts due to reverence for tradition. SO despite the military moving on to firearms and artillery, traditional sword schools and empty hand styles still abounded through out asia. You don't find that in Europe.
  6. Stold2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 2:05am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It just seemed like you were saying that they kept their traditional ways and used them mainly in war.
  7. Sheol is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 3:01am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fisting Kittens:

    Most non-asian hand to hand martial arts are "rediscoveries." Meaning they never existed but people wanna pretend that they have this tradition. Of course there are exceptions like Savate, but most cultures never developed ways of fighting without weapons (well they didn't develop them to the point I would call them martial arts.)

    It really does sound as if you believe that European cultures, for the most part, simply skipped over unarmed combat. To the contrary, up til the 19th century it was considered to an essential part of being a complete soldier/gentleman. (Note George Silver's famous treatise "Paradoxes of Defense".) Now, if I misread you, it was your own fault. :D Now, I do agree with you that Western pugilism is MOSTLY dead, so what more do you want? :)

    Two to one... you didn't write your points clearly.

    Edited by - Sheol on February 05 2003 02:04:53
  8. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 4:45am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A big problem with Silvers work is that its basicly a propaganda piece against the french spanish and italians. I'm not saying its worthless, but you have to take its bias into account.
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  9. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 4:46am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >The European arts aren't practiced AT ALL because people moved on to newer and better methods (guns, guns, and more guns).

    Not true. Many Euro arts are still being practiced. The only real 'rediscovery' I can think of is the Pankration thing because pancrase wasn't a style but a event so this seemed very commercial.

    When I went to India there were pple still practiceing there martial traditions. Many african tribes STILL practice their wrestling and stick fighting traditions as well as hunt with tradtional weapons and use modern firearms as well. By no means do the asians corner the market om being strict on tradition.

    >Now all three are only found in Danse de Rue Savate which might disappear itself.

    I don't think it will. I met many who want to perserve the tradtiton.


    Sheol,

    When you talk about Zipota, chauson, and etc. How much credit go to the Basque? I'm going back to the reigon to get more info but I get the impression they had a HUGE impact in both countries mainly because they were mean lil bastards getting picked on from both sides.


    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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  10. Rico is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2003 9:17am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A great source for European fighting arts:
    http://www.thehaca.com
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