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  1. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2003 8:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In UFC 40 Lawler cut his poopnents eye open with one punch to the head. They stop the fight once a guy starts taking heavy hits to the head. That is true. Its not because they fear that guys like Lawler will injure their knuckles.

    It is true that guys get more internal damage from boxing because they stay in there longer .. but look at Shamrock's face after UFC 40. That's what happens when you let a bare knuckle fight keep going.

    How many matches like that over a 5 year span do you think Ken could endure as opposed to the dozens of fights boxers go through in 5 years?

    There is a reason that the UFC they stop the fight after only a few strikes to the head. Its because bare knuckle strikes are a lot more damaging.

    Boxers may take more punishment because they keep fighting even though they take heavy damage but no boxing match would last one round without the gloves. t
  2. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2003 11:41am

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    9chambers...your ability to restate the obvious astounds me! Didn't we already cover this?

    The issue is more the "deeper" damage done by constant bashing to the head. Shamrock may not have looked pretty, but honestly? Most of that damage was superficial. He still went what, 3 rounds? Which is leading me to my rant about why I think the fight was a fix...but I digress.

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  3. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    1/02/2003 6:56pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CrimsonDickhead,

    It could have been a fix. There was a lot of hype and honestly Ken's record wasn't ever really that hot. There is no reason to call him a "legend" in the sport even if there were less rules back then. His pro NHB record was [8-4-2] when he got in the ring with Tito. That isn't too impressive when you look at guys like this:

    Dan "The Beast" Severn 44-6-4
    Bas Rutten "El Guapo" 26-4-1
    Pat Militech 26-5-2
    Semmy "Hightower" Schilt 22-12-1
    Vanderlei "The Axe Murderer" Silva 21-3-1
    Antonio "Minotauro" Rodrigo Nogueira 18-1-1
    Frank Shamrock 18-7-1
    Mark Weir 17-1-0
    Tito Ortiz 15-2-0
    Kazushi Sakuraba 14-4-1
    Mark Kerr 13-3-0
    Kevin Randleman 13-5-0
    Royce Gracie 12-2-1
    Mark Coleman 12-5-0
    Carlos "The Ronin" Newton 12-6-0
    Rickson Gracie 11-0-0
    Chuck Lidell 11-1-0
    Ricco Rodriquez 11-1-0
    Don "The Predator" Freye 11-2-0
    Vladimir Matyushenko 11-2-0
    Eugine Jackson 11-5-0
    Murilo Bustamante 10-1-0
    Vitor Belfort 10-3-0
    Marco "King of the Streets" Ruas 8-3-2

    Anyway, maybe they wanted to make Tito a big draw since he is the biggest star they have in the UFC right now. (Its all about the money) Maybe they wanted to take advantage of the public rivalry and stir up interest ... maybe they knew Ken would lose like everyone else knew. Whatever.

    Me, personally, I don't think it was fixed. I just think Ken sucked. I think he always sucked. I think people just forgot that he really kinda sucked. Frank is a good fighter, one of my favorites. Ken is clumsy, dumb and slow. He relied on his big muscles back in the day. He has cut out the steroid use now so he doesn't even have that going for him.

    Anyway, on to other stuff ..

    Ken's face damage was superficial because most of it was from elbows to the front of the face. There weren't a lot of heavy fist punches landed to the head. Also, the small gloves they wear flatten the surface of the fist so no small knuckles can dig into depressions or cut the flesh.

    If those guys were in there for three rounds under boxing rules where there was no grappling, kicking or elbows allowed then one of them would have ended up knocked out within one round. If it went the three someone could have ended up dead.

    Stances, strategy and everything are changed by the wider range of technique available to them in NHB. But bare knuckle boxing has always been far more deadly than NHB fighting. When you have to stand up and close and trade punches then someone will get cut open or have a blood vessel burst or break a jaw. Someone could end up blind or dead. Look back when gloves were smaller in boxing. There were guys that died from punches to the head.

    I'm sorry but saying that taking punches from a glove is worse than bare knuckle is retarded. Even if you take more of them.I'd rather take 50 punches from a guy wearing a glove than 5 from a guy bare fisted. There is more risk involved in bare fist fighting. The damage from the first few strikes may be superficial .. like Lawler cutting that other guy's eye open and digging a chunk out of his head .. but once the guy starts pounding then you are going to have broken bones and concussions.

    Ken didn't get a lot of internal damage that I know of but most of what he was enduring was a bunch of crossfaces and short-range elbows and very few punches from 3 or 4 inches away on the ground with a guy wearing a glove.

    I've seen a lot of fights where guys have had their cheek ripped open, jaws broken and gotten severe concussions due to bare knuckle punches. I don't think they should be taken lightly.

    There is a reason they wear those gloves in the UFC. Knuckles are like little hammers and at the right angle they can be sharp enough .. like a hatchet.

    Boxers are tough but they don't face the risks that bare knuckle fighters face. I don't agree.
  4. I Give BJJs is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2003 8:13pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "CrimsonDickhead".....lol

    cmon 9chambers.....at least try to be clever...
  5. SLJ is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2003 4:21am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You've got far more chance of getting brain damage from boxing with gloves on, a large surface area continuesly clubbing you in the head shaking the brain.

    Bare fist looks much worse, with people's faces ending up like pizzas, but the chance of internal damage is much less.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    ”He (Master Bristol) was like a slippery fish. There was no way I could hold on to him.” -- Tomas Shurrman, Judo Expert
    "You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
    YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior

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  6. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2003 10:20am

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    9chambers,

    I'm rubber, you're glue...oh, nevermind.

    You make some good points...although when did we end up on bare-knuckle boxing? I thought we were talking about UFC? UFC never stayed stand-up fighting. I didn't say that knuckles (or this tiny UFC gloves) weren't effective! But to use your point against you, those "little hammers/hatchets" are also highly effective against other parts of the body. Open hands also allowed for other non-concussive techniques (where boxers can ONLY punch!) And finally, open wounds and broken bones are not the domain solely of UFC fights...boxers get busted up regularly, although not as often as MMA fighters...and therein lies the rub! If you don't KNOW you're being hurt badly, the effects become cumulative! Once a guy starts hemorraging, that's it...fights tend to be called off. However concussions, internal bleeding, etc. aren't caught until after the fight...or after MANY fights.

    You're ideas are logical and make sense...yes, there's damage done in both arenas. But I can't see how with all the empirical evidence and history from Boxing (relative to MAs/MMAs) you can still say Boxing is less damaging long-term?

    And for the record, I didn't think Ken was great, but I don't believe Tito's all that hot either. I honestly think it was all about the money for Ken and credibility for Tito as the UFC Poster-boy. *shrug* Not that I really care THAT much.

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  7. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2003 12:03am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, you are right .. I see what you mean now. I am just used to people who think its like the movies and that you can take 50 punches with bare fists like its a boxing match.

    It is true that boxers get mangled inside because they are taking such a beating for long periods of time. I agree.

    You are right.
  8. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/04/2003 1:08am

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     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *blink* Uhhh...thanks, I guess.

    Ever get that feeling that you've just both spent a whole lot of time on something that should've been REALLY basic for all of us?

    I understand what you mean about the movies though. As my training developed over time, I began to really dislike a lot of "common" fight scenes because they just didn't make sense anymore. I've always kept my mouth shut around my non-MA friends about it, but it really bothers and ruins movies for me. They wouldn't just shatter their hands either, they'd probably wreck their elbows...shatter jaws. *sigh* Hollywood.


    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  9. Vargas is offline
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    The Man with No Neck

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2003 11:30pm

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     Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Best comparison I ever heard of was to look at Helio Gracie, then look at Muhammed Ali. One guy just turned 90 and is still pretty spry. The other guy is three decades younger and is a total mess. Sure, two guys don't prove a theory, but damn. . .
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"
  10. Blad3 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/12/2003 4:38pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Submission Wrestling.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In boxing the main objective is to strike to the head, and that's what happens most the time.

    With gloves you can seriously still hurt your hands, those punches hurt alot.

    Without gloves you increase the risk of hand injury, the punches will be abit mor epowerful (maybe, but as it hurts more to punch with the fist fighters may be cautious, restraining their punches.) Also their will be lesspucnhes because of the unprotected hand, and alot mor ehand injuries. Their is minimal differnce in the power though.

    [quote] hit him with 500 gloved and keep fighting. [quote] As their is little difference in power, and there will almost definitely be more glove pucnhes thrown you would be likely to kill some one if you landed 1 fourth that amount of pucnhes full-on.
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.
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