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  1. Mercurius is offline
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    Wandering Daoist

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 6:36am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Given 1: Judo is comparable in quality and function as a martial art to BJJ.

    Given 2: In the first UFCs and other NHB events, Royce Gracie and other BJJ stylists universally defeated Karateka and other martial artists who focused only on striking.

    Given 3: Judo and Karate have coexisted in Japan and elsewhere since the early 1920s, at times becoming rivals.

    Question: Why weren't Karateka and other stand-up striking martial artists alerted (by interaction with Judoka) to the acute dangers of ignoring grappling and defense against grapplers as part of their martial strategy before Royce Gracie and BJJ did it with gusto in 1993 and onwards?

    Certainly, Judoka and Karateka matched before 1993, but was the outcome of those matches not decisive and obvious enough to trigger such a change? Or were these interactions not frequent or numerous enough to have such an effect?

    Anyone with ideas on this, please post your thoughts.

    "God is dead." -Nietzsche
    "Nietzsche is dead." -God
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
  2. Kensai is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 7:38am


     Style: Aikido and Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting post. I think that grappling in some form or another has excisted in Karate-do for some time. In the most part I think the West has ignored the true mean of the Kata. This could be due to the popularity of Boxing. Without understanding Kata and therefore understanding the Bunkai-Jutsu you are not infact doing karate.

    I am not trying to say that Karate grappling to going to be on a parallel with that of Judo or BJJ. As we all know that Karate does focus on striking, but Karate Bunkai does show methods of "escape" and basic grappling to allow them to get back the lost ma-ai (distance) to properly use the techniques they have focused on.

    There is a very talented Karateka here in the UK called Iain Abernethy, that has been studing shotokan kata in the same way Funakoshi Sensei did. He has shown some interesting and appliable techniques from the kata, in both stand up grappling and on the floor.

    I think Karate in the west especially, has tried to focus to much on the striking aspect of Karate and through ignorance and short sightedness ignored the Bunkai and the kata. This is why they keep losing.

    Yours in Aiki.



    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
    those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
    Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." -O Sensei Ueshiba
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 12:37pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mixed MA matches were common before '93 pitting one style against another. But unlike to day where pple bicker over styles more like children. Fighters were given their personal props. Kimura destroyed Helio but he also bow downed to Oyama. Why because Oyama beat the pants of Kimura he had many factors over him.

    The UFC birth a new generation of Marital SPORTS (which I am very thankful for a LEGAL means of beating pple up for fun!) but look at what pple were used to in the west at the time. The NINJA Boom and Karate Kid era was dying out. BLOODSPORT was still on pples mind. Pple actually thought the UFC would look like some MA movie.

    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


    "I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. SRyuFighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 12:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Karate does not deal with grappling too much. They aren't going to start training a different way because they lose a few matches against Judo practicioners.

    Bring out the windbreakers, I feel a storm coming on!
  5. Alter7nate is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 1:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, Kimura raped Helio yet lose to Oyama...a Karateka
  6. Choke is offline

    The REAL thread killer

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 5:02pm


     Style: World 10-3 Ryu Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mas Oyama was not the typical Karateka however.

    Cast in the name of God. Ye not guilty.
    "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

    -- George Bernard Shaw
  7. Greese is offline
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    Motorboatin SOB

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2002 5:23pm

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     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, in Japan, there is good money in doing Judo. Why risk injury for less money then you would get for doing Judo on a company team? It's the same reason we do not see top boxers in MMA...the money is not there to make it worth it.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  8. CrimsonTiger is offline
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    RAAAAAAR! Fear the Tiger!

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2002 1:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Greese1 is correct, unfortunately. It's really about the money. The best trainers, the best athletes go to where the money is.

    Many grappler (Judoka, BJJ, etc.) wouldn't stand a chance against a striker (karateka, boxer, etc) who could avoid the grapple. They don't need to be GOOD, just adequate.

    BJJ had its day, but we're seeing more strikers come into their own now as they learn to defend the grapple and apply their strikes in all situations.

    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale
    Regards,
    CrimsonTiger

    "Na'h, they should go to old school rules.
    One guy gets sword and sheild, the other gets a net and a trident.
    Lions eat christians between rounds." - Strong Machine
  9. TKD Boxer is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2003 11:29am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to have both if you want to be a good fighter, the pure grappler will almost always beat the pure striker. The pure bred grappplers and strikers rarely make it very far in my opinion.
  10. cyberstalker is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2003 3:56pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have to have both if you want to be a good fighter, the pure grappler will almost always beat the pure striker. The pure bred grappplers and strikers rarely make it very far in my opinion.
    I have not watched a great deal of UFC, but when I did, I don't recall seeing one eye poke,throat strike, or groin shot. Most people can take a punch to the jaw or kick to the leg to bridge the gap. Not many can take blows the the very targets the UFC eliminates. I am not trying to downgrade grappling, but lets keep in mind that the rules make it a sport and not a true fight.
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