Thread: Kyokushin going down the hill?
7/30/2004 10:19pm, #1
Kyokushin going down the hill?
"On the evening of June 26th 2004 we came to the Foshan Sports Stadium in Canton to witness the continuing battle between Sanda & Full Contact Karate. This time, the Chinese managed to invite the original full contact guys - fighters from Kyokushin Karate to fight with their Sanda Kings.
However these Kyokushin guys are from Royama's splinter group, which has relatively much less fighters to choose from as compared to the Matsui group, IKO-1. Still, they are very much qualified to represent the true full contact style, more so than the Daidojuku guys of the past two challenges. The result of this battle, consisting of 5 weight categories, was unsurprisingly one-sided - the Chinese annihilated the Japanese 5 : 0, and among the 5 bouts the Chinese won 3 by TKO.
The first bout of the evening was the 70kg category fight between Yang Zhiqiang, a winner of last year's China VS Japan Freestyle Tournament 2003, and Mingcheng Yusi (pinyin translation), a runner-up at Royama's Kyokushin-kan Open Tournament. But because Kyokushin rules forbids striking to the face as well as all forms of grappling, Mingcheng was obviously not used to Yang's grappling range attacks. Yang was able to use his throws to their best effect. In the first round Mingcheng was already dazed after taking a few tackling throws from Yang. In fact, the Kyokushin guys had expressed difficulty in fighting under Sanda rules even before the event. Although they tried to do some special remedial training to prepare for this, it was not as simple as one imagine when it comes to actually applying it in the Ring. As Yang was able to win the first round easily, he became certain that an offensive throwing strategy would seal the fate of Mingcheng. This was again verified in the second round and the rest of the bout. One of Yang's leg-hooking throw was so crisp that it managed to send the crowd into a cheering frenzy. And so Yang was the first to open the gates of victory for the Chinese Sanda Team.
The second bout was the 75kg category bout between the invincible Baoligao, who was fresh from winning the World Sanda Kings 2003 last December, and Donghailin Liangjie, who had won the Kyokushin-kan All Japan Weight Category champion for his class this year. It was obvious to everyone that Baoligao looked bigger and heavier than the Japanese - another sign of weight manipulation by the Chinese? In fact, all five Chinese fighters looked bigger than the Japanese team! The home crowd cheered Baoligao towards another high. Facing these odds it was all Donghailin could do to stay calm and fight the menacing Baoligao. The first round began with both fighters cautiously testing each other out. But with the help of the thunderous crowd, Baoligao became braver and finally broke the deadlock with a series of furious combos, forcing the Karateka into a corner. Donghailin could only try his best to cover-up and defend himself. He tried to throw a left front kick, which Baoligao grabbed and countered with a right cross to his face, causing him to crash to the canvas with blood seeping out from his mouth. Although he managed to stand up again with much difficulty, he had obviously lost his sense of direction as he raised his fists not towards Baoligao, but towards the referee! We have to admit Donghailin is a tough guy as he continued to fight or rather take punishment till the fourth round. In the end he was still declared TKO by Baoligao's heavy punches, bringing the bout to a spectacular finish.
The third bout was the 80kg category bout between Liu Hailong, the original Sanda King of Kings and Shuigu Xuan, who was fired up to win after the Kyokushin team lost two bouts in a row. Shuigu aggressively went head to head with Liu right before the bout, when the referee was explaining the rules. We could see his eyes were filled with blazing fighting spirit, but could he match up against the best fighter in China? At the start of the bout Shuigu charged towards Liu, and both ended up on the canvas. However that appeared to be all Shuigu could do.
Soon after that Liu landed a left high round kick squarely on his head, instantly sending him down to the canvas. At that point, the Karateka simply lost all his drive. A few exchanges later Liu landed another solid right cross on Shuigu, this time really knocking him down flat. Although he was saved by the bell, by the second round he had lost all his fight and became Liu's sandbag. Moments later Liu landed yet another left-hook on the Japanese, and he had nothing else to do except to kneel and kowtow in complete defeat.
By now the Chinese had won this Sanda VS Kyokushin battle, but seeing how strong they were, we expected them to win the rest of the bouts no less.
The fourth bout was the 85kg bout between Wang Xunyong, a hometown fighter of Foshan, and Xiayuan Wang, who offered some hope for the Japanese to at least win one bout. True to expectations Xiayuan landed a right reverse punch in the face of Wang, making the first Chinese fighter bleed profusely that night. However, a bloody face did not devastate the fighting spirit of Wang, but under the cheering of the home crowd he became even fiercer than normal. Technically he did not look much better than the Karateka; it was his aggression, forcing the Japanese into a corner several times and not giving him too many chances to counter attack that won him this bout. The Kyokushin team knew at that point that this night was totally lost to the Sanda team.
The fifth and final bout was the 90kg category bout between Mongolian Sanda fighter Qinggele and Kazakhstan's Tom Pishev, who won a second runner up in the Kyokushin Russian Open. Tom, who was supposed to be a foreign legionnaire for the Japanese Kyokushin team, turned out to be a blank as he was quickly disposed of by Qinggele's right high round kick to the neck, effecting a perfect TKO finish for the Chinese that night. Yet another massacre for full contact karate, and being of the Kyokushin style made little difference. Final score: 5 : 0 for the Chinese.
*The fact that Matsui group (IKO-1) having better fighters than the Royama group and yet refusing to fight the Chinese proved that the original spirit of Oyama is almost dead. They were afraid of the Sanda rules, afraid to admit they could not deal with other styles strong in punching the face and grappling. They choose to let a lesser Kyokushin group take the shame of complete defeat instead. Gone are the fearless pioneers of Kyokushin who went around the world challenging other styles and overcoming their best fighters. Whether it is in K-1 previously or in Sanda now, Kyokushin fighters find themselves increasingly lacking in ability to deal with the progress of the stand-up fighting world, unless they cross train. Sanda as a ring-sport as well as a stand-up martial art is improving by leaps and bounds every year, even surpassing Muaythai, as we could see in the past Sanda VS Muaythai challenges. As I have written in my past article 'The Rise and Fall of Kyokushin', Kyokushin can no longer be called the strongest karate. If it still does not wake up after this exchange with Chinese Sanda, it will decay further and finally go the obsolete way of traditional kungfu - Author""People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
- Uncyclopedia entry on Judo
7/30/2004 10:39pm, #2
Well if the Kyokushin guys never put gloves on and went to the face, or knew how to throw, of course they'd lose to people who did. Common sense really.
7/30/2004 10:41pm, #3
Therefore best thing to do is to train both bareknukles and with boxing gloves~~~"People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
- Uncyclopedia entry on Judo
7/30/2004 10:50pm, #4
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- Jun 2004
You don't know how truly sad this is, until you run across a wushu instructor who teaches absolutely no full contact fighting ...
... and he pulls out the sanda results of the Chinese and claim that the Chinese are the best fighters in the world, and him by association. (Even though they win these things by cheating).
But the look on his face when you tell him he's full of crap is priceless.
Last edited by edward; 7/30/2004 11:41pm at .
7/30/2004 11:13pm, #5
Tell that wushu guy he is an idiot, and i hate to the core those wushu people who are egoistic(next to tkd)~~~
And what do you mean "win these things by cheating"?"People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
- Uncyclopedia entry on Judo
7/30/2004 11:45pm, #6
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- Jun 2004
Everybody knows the Chinese cheat.
They mess with the weight classes, they fight with different rules (like they said above, the Kyokushin guys aren't used to grappling), etc.
The judges are all CHINESE.
What I told the wushu guy was: "You know, those Sanda guys might be good, but you don't teach fighting."
He looked at me a little funny. "Well, where are your students sparring? Do they spar?"
There was nothing he could say. He just put the paper away, and that was the end of the conversation.
7/30/2004 11:47pm, #7
* Hannibal kicks over the table*
Actually it depends on the fighters. That articel gives me the shits for so many reasons.
Firstly. Alot of Kyokushin guys do know how to grapple - they cross train in Judo. But we don't grapple in our tournaments because we want to keep it strictly striking.
Secondly. Don't bring up the 'Kyokushin guys do not know how to punch to the face' argument. It is plain crap and the reason we don't punch to the head has been discussed before.
Thirdly. So a handful if Kyokushin guys lost in a tournamnet. BIG - FUCKING - DEAL. In the world of martial arts people win and lose all the time, even the best are beaten. Kyokushin is still THE strongest karate because our fighting and harsh training is unmatched by any other (except Muay Thai). You give me 10 random kung fu guys against 10 random Kyokushin guys and I'm telling you Kyokushin will win 11 times out of 10.
I love this Kung Fu guys paying US out. Yeah right, I'm sure. Kung Fu's a reliable system, ITTS'S never been beaten by fighters from any other arts. They should have a look at the **** in their own backyards before judging others.
ANd whats this bullshit about progress in the stand up fighting world ? What fucking progress ?
We have modified our punching and kicking. A punch to the head is a punch to the head and a good kick to the body is a good kick to the body no matter what style your trained in. After that it all comes down to the talent of the individual and training of the athlete. If those guys won because of their grappling abilities, thats one thing, but we all have 2 arms and 2 legs. There are only so many different ways you can punch and kick someone. Everything that can be done in striking HAS been done, unless someone grows another arm or leg.
Last edited by Hannibal; 7/30/2004 11:51pm at .Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
7/30/2004 11:54pm, #8
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- Jun 2004
Sanda is NOT Kung Fu
Sanda is NOT kung fu.
Sanda has nothing to do with 'Kung fu'.
If you take any of the major systems of China, Sanda is closer to kickboxing with some grappling (shuai chiao) thrown in.
Shaolin, wing chun, hung gar, chow lay fut, taiji, xingyi, baji, etc.
Sanda is none of those. Sanda is just kickboxing with some grappling thrown in.
Make them fight full contact (no gloves) against Kyokushin guys, and then let's see who wins.
Not saying the Sanda fighters aren't tough and well trained. They are. But we should see how they do in a real match.
Last edited by edward; 7/30/2004 11:57pm at .
7/30/2004 11:54pm, #9
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- Jun 2004
And with an international team of judges. Not Chinese.
7/31/2004 12:01am, #10
My bad, I'm sorry.Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!