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  1. cyberstalker is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2002 2:39pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I disagree that thinking that just jumping on someone and beating on them like a maniac will necessarily win a fight; it takes more than just cheap-shots and enthusiasm to deal with a complex situation.
    Dan, I never said that. My point is that many of us spend the bulk of our sparring, sparring other trained and cautious fighters, while in the streets, the majority of attacks are straight out blitzes. Many trained martial arts practitioners are unprepared when facing this type of an attack, as a result. Do I think we should respond to a blitz style attack by doing the same…? No…because it places you on equal footing with the attacker and reduces the outcome to almost the level of luck. Not to mention, if that was the solution, we all could save ourselves a great deal of time and money, since most of us knew how to do that before ever stepped into a dojo.

    My point is that these types attacks are real, and they are common, but people rarely practice dealing with these types of attacks, regardless of what solution they choose, be it controlling distance, wrapping up your attacker, the stop hit, etc.. I think that many martial arts students would be better prepared if they got into a confrontation with a trained fighter, than an untrained one.

    I pretty much agree with everything else you said. I don't know what they teach today, but when I started training we were concerned with targets. I don't know how you target someone in one of those big monkey suits.
  2. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/25/2002 4:01pm

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     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would AGREE that most fights are a blitz and ground and pound. To many people have tried to convince us that fighting is this complex web of attack and defense like a fukking Kung Fu Theatre flick. Being in great shape and having balls of lead goes a long way baby.
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  3. Vargas is offline
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    The Man with No Neck

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2002 6:03pm

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     Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is a good answer to the 'blitzkrieg, hell-bent-for-leather, screech monkey on meth' attack. It's called a double-leg takedown. I've seen it done twice on completely pyscho attackers. The impact of their skull/neck with the sidewalk calmed them down quite nicely. Don't think going bonkers on a trained wrestler will work. It won't, trust me.
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"
  4. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2002 1:27am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of your strangley interesting questions I actually think I can answer. Something I noticed while I was living in Korea was the tendency to use feet and kicks in brawls, horseplay, intimidation etc. Though I only witnessed two balls to the wall street fights between Koreans while I was there, that probably is more than most have. In both cases, the combatants stayed at kicking range and threw weak-ass kicks at each other. There's a "cart-before-the-horse" problem here as most Koreans are steeped in TKD as children, but they were clearly not M-Artists. But they weren't namby-pambys, either. They seemed the equivalent of your typical berser American street thug. There is a lot of cultural context associated not only with the street fight, but also with what might be called conventional warfare. Among the Yanamamo, wars are often fought for a long time without bloodshed, and could end with something as simple as a nosebleed. Modern, industrial, surplus-producing societies practically invented the all-or-nothing war, though even that is really debatable. I think the rest of your post is dead-on, and I would like to put the problem with most East Asian style Trad M-Artists into two words..."concrete feet".

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  5. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2002 7:26am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "why so many martial arts practitioners are getting their butts kicked when they actually attempt to use their skills in the streets"

    Perhaps I sound crazy, but can you support this base assumption ?

    I practice in a traditional M.A. dojo, learning a system of the type most of you seem to depreciate. And yet, of the fights I know students in my dojo fought in the street, most of them won. And most of those who lost, I would have been surprised had they won: fighting against a better skilled practitioner of M.A. or against multiple opponenent after too short a period of learning, in short - the losses were all due to lack of student ability versus a difficult situation.
    Do not forget, learning M.A. doesn't insure anyone of 100% victory, it's just one factor of the many factors determining a fights result (don't forget size, situation, luck, surprise, motivation, strength ...).
    So in short, could you collaborate your basic assumption with some statistics ?

    I too feel and think in the first year or even couple of years, a M.A. student is more vulnerable to attacks. One is just starting to learn a new way, and at the first stages, he can't implement it without conscious thought, as it is supposed to be. So one is at disadvantage.
    But, as a student progresses, he is getting used to his art and his body starts to realize the ideas he is taught, then one techniques and movement are fluid and effective.
    Of course this process takes a few years, to some less and to others more.

    Amir
  6. FightKing is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2002 1:54pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Arguing about winning and losing a lot of times is a moot point. A person with an agressive temperament can be an able fighter in roughly a year. The same person with a passive, non violent temperament, I give him/her 3 years. And thats not counting a whole bunch of factors that I am not going to even bother getting into. To each his own.
  7. cyberstalker is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2002 4:02pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "why so many martial arts practitioners are getting their butts kicked when they actually attempt to use their skills in the streets"

    Perhaps I sound crazy, but can you support this base assumption ?
    Strangly this is a good question. To my knowledge, there are no statistics saying "x number of black belts of this style win 4 out of 5 times against moderatly experienced street fighters, etc". It actually could be a case of 'Man bites dog' since a martial artist defending himself succesfully on the street isn't really news. My assumption is really just a matter of hearing about local and somewhat practitions losing in the local bars. Interesting enough, not many people were surprised by the presupposition of my original post.
  8. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2002 4:22pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sweet thread!!

    Just curious cyberstalker, what style do you take?
    And which one took 8+ hours for a BB test?
    It sounds pretty hardcore.

    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
    -Ghandi
  9. cyberstalker is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2002 12:01am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sweet thread!!

    Just curious cyberstalker, what style do you take?
    And which one took 8+ hours for a BB test?
    It sounds pretty hardcore.
    Ironically, my first style was Tae Kwon Do (I always shudder when I say that). The difference was that it was Tae Kwon Do people who had their eyes on keeping it real for the street (kicking only below the waist, full contact sparring, toughness + technique). The school I started at has since become a McDojo when my instructor realized that he could keep more students and make much more money by lowering the requirements for the students as opposed to lifting the students to the requirements.

    No biggie, that is why I have moved on, and while I will only train in styles now that are fully grounded in actual street effectivness.
  10. SLJ is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2003 4:38am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good post, I agree totally.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    ”He (Master Bristol) was like a slippery fish. There was no way I could hold on to him.” -- Tomas Shurrman, Judo Expert
    "You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
    YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior

    "Sport ? That kind of thing's not my bag baby!" - Sammy Franco

    "This system was developed with the help of notible BJJ fighter Ribbon Muchado." - "Sifu" Anthony Iglesias
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