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  1. cyberstalker is offline

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    Dec 2002
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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 12:25pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing I have been spending a lot of time thinking about is why so many martial arts practitioners are getting their butts kicked when they actually attempt to use their skills in the streets. I thought I would share some of the observations that I have seen in watching what was once a very good street oriented karate school turn into a McDojo, over the last 10 years. I am a relative newcomer to this site, but in my short time here I have often been somewhat critical of other opinions, so I feel its now my time to air mine and hold them up for ridicule as well. I apologize for the length, but I really just need to vent, so if you donít have tolerance for long rambling threads, please move on now.

    Many people seem be under the illusion that a street fight between two people has the same tempo as the sparring done in most martial arts schools between two trained fighters. The natural U.S. way of fighting is the blitz and keep hitting mode of fighting, which progress into eventual grab and pound tactics. I have seen so many sparring matches where the people almost take turns, or stop after the initial hit. Ironically in most street fights, that initial hit is the inspiration to keep pounding. My point is that not many people train for this type of onslaught. I find it funny that we bring in someone with some natural fighting ability; we put a white belt on them, and change everything about the way they fight. Guess what, for the first year (and in many cases longer), they probably actually fight worst than they did when they first walked into the school. It keeps our illusion going, not because we are good, but because we brought them down to our level.

    Intensity of Martial arts training has changed even since I started. We used to train hard, spar hard, practice self-defense techniques regularly. Katas and fancy kicks were always there, but they were always kept within the context of just being part of the art. Today, I see kids who will spend hours upon hours trying to perfect a flying spending back kick, but who have little or know punching ability. I am not for bashing each otherís brains in, but now we barley tap each other. Why is this bad? Well because it gives you the ability to hit someone without the ability to hurt then. Both distance and follow through are off.

    Most Martial Arts schools are only good at maybe one or two ranges of fighting. They are good at kicking and maybe punching, but are weak in a trapping and grappling range. Others are good at grappling and punching, but have no concept of trapping, or kicking (Choose combination of two you want). It is amazing how many people donít understand that your novice street fighter can easily get you in the range they want you in. I think that kickers are the most mislead of all when it comes to this. The reason why I respect the Gracies is that they gave the wake up call that all martial arts practitioners needed, that we have probably neglected our grappling way too long. Also, is it realistic to say, without being a bigot that apparently people fight differently in different cultures? Is it safe to same that all arts might need adaptations to the threat at hand? In other works, what works in South Asia might need some adjustments when being used by someone to defend themselves in the Bronx? I know Bruce Lee made changes after encountering the differences in western fighting. I have come to the conclusion that they must fight very differently in the streets of Korea.

    My black belt example was 8+ hours. I puked twice and at the end of it I was unable to drive myself home because my legs kept cramping up for the next 4 hours afterward. I slept for 12 hours straight after it and was pretty fucked up for the next week. Today I am embarrassed of the people who wear black belts in my school. Instructors have realized that the easiest way to keep making money is to keep students moving ahead. The problem is that the student used to have to meet the criteria, now the criteria meet the student. Imagine how it feels for me to see the value of something I worked so hard to obtain lose itís meaning a little more every day. Some any martial arts instructors have fast become marketing experts who trace whatever trend seems to come down the line. Taebo may be the death of us all.

    Many of the earlier practitioners of martial arts in the U.S. were soldiers, or people who already were somewhat tough and were looking for a new way of proving it. Now it seems, as mentioned on another thread, the new students going to martial arts schools are either outright wimps, dorks, overweight people looking for something for fitness, kids whoís parents want an instructor to teach their kids the ďSelf Discipline that they are either too lazy or to incompetent to teach them, themselves. Now what we have are wimps, dorks, and overweight people with illusions that they no how to fight, but have no concept of what a real fight is like.

    Well, thatís my rant, correct me where I am wrong, let me know where I am right.
  2. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 12:55pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Imagine how it feels for me to see the value of something I worked so hard to obtain lose itís meaning a little more every day.
    I think you should feel good about what you have earned and not compare it with the accomplishments of others who did not work as hard. You seem to know what you want from the Martial Arts, and you are willing to apply yourself to get it. By comparing your self with others, you sell yourself short. Because of what you have done to achieve your rank, you should feel better, and your belt should have more meaning to you. Why? Because you know exactly what you did to earn it, and there fore you know it's true value.

    Keep up the hard work. You are an inspiration to us who also work hard for what we are trying to earn.

    Sincerely,


    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  3. SRyuFighter is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 1:06pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I completely agree. Good post. There are people who are not dorks and wimps at MA schools around the world its just that at McDojo's there are not.

    Bring out the windbreakers, I feel a storm coming on!
  4. Boyd is offline
    Boyd's Avatar

    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 3:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hear hear. I've always wondered myself if formal martial arts training can be deleterious to your fighting ability. To an extent, I believe that. It's easy to get so wrapped up in technique that your head gets bashed in while you're still thinking "Okay, rotate hips, shoot from elbow, not hand, shoulders down, AHH CHRIST HE ACTUALLY MANAGED TO PULL OFF AN EYE GOUGE". I'm exaggerating a bit, obviously, since he'd have to be a grade-A moron to get hit with an eye gouge, but you get the picture.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  5. Thomas is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 4:34pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hi cyberstalker,

    i do not do tae bo, i never have, i never will. however tae bo/billy blanks have not claimed to be about "self defense" or "martial arts". the web site does not mention either. tae bo is not a martial art and it does not teach self defense.

    HOWEVER! after discussing the situation a few months ago with a group of female friends i asked if they thought they could defend themselves after taking tae bo and their answer was "yes". their reasoning was that the tae bo gives them experience doing kicks and punches, and they asked where else a "normal" person would get experience doing that. the end result of the conversation was that they are physically CAPABLE of doing martial arts after taking tae bo, but they are NOT martial artists.

    this IS dangerous for them. i do not want my sister to think that she can defend herself after doing tae bo. she realizes that the "self defense" and "martial arts" claims are not made on the tae bo tapes, however it is NOT mentioned that tae bo does not teach self defense and you do not necessarily "know how to fight" because of it. this is a glaring omission on NCP Marketing's part that could have negative repercussions for the unwary.

    this is the bottom line: tae bo has it's place as a FITNESS ACTIVITY. however people need to be made aware of the fact that it is only BASED ON martial arts, not ACTUALLY a martial art.

    also, a qualified instructor will nurture someone's natural fighting ability, not stifle it. it's unfortunate there are so many unqualified instructors out there that don't even know they're unqualified.
  6. Thomas is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 4:36pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i also agree with your thoughts about today's students having a different mindset than those of years past. now it is common for students to ask for rank, where as when i was coming up it was unheard of. you got rank when you got rank and you liked it, dammit!
  7. DanSevering is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 4:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing I have been spending a lot of time thinking about is why so many martial arts practitioners are getting their butts kicked when they actually attempt to use their skills in the streets. I thought I would share some of the observations that I have seen in watching what was once a very good street oriented karate school turn into a McDojo, over the last 10 years. I am a relative newcomer to this site, but in my short time here I have often been somewhat critical of other opinions, so I feel its now my time to air mine and hold them up for ridicule as well. I apologize for the length, but I really just need to vent, so if you donít have tolerance for long rambling threads, please move on now.

    Many people seem be under the illusion that a street fight between two people has the same tempo as the sparring done in most martial arts schools between two trained fighters. The natural U.S. way of fighting is the blitz and keep hitting mode of fighting, which progress into eventual grab and pound tactics. I have seen so many sparring matches where the people almost take turns, or stop after the initial hit. Ironically in most street fights, that initial hit is the inspiration to keep pounding. My point is that not many people train for this type of onslaught. I find it funny that we bring in someone with some natural fighting ability; we put a white belt on them, and change everything about the way they fight. Guess what, for the first year (and in many cases longer), they probably actually fight worst than they did when they first walked into the school. It keeps our illusion going, not because we are good, but because we brought them down to our level.

    Intensity of Martial arts training has changed even since I started. We used to train hard, spar hard, practice self-defense techniques regularly. Katas and fancy kicks were always there, but they were always kept within the context of just being part of the art. Today, I see kids who will spend hours upon hours trying to perfect a flying spending back kick, but who have little or know punching ability. I am not for bashing each otherís brains in, but now we barley tap each other. Why is this bad? Well because it gives you the ability to hit someone without the ability to hurt then. Both distance and follow through are off.

    Most Martial Arts schools are only good at maybe one or two ranges of fighting. They are good at kicking and maybe punching, but are weak in a trapping and grappling range. Others are good at grappling and punching, but have no concept of trapping, or kicking (Choose combination of two you want). It is amazing how many people donít understand that your novice street fighter can easily get you in the range they want you in. I think that kickers are the most mislead of all when it comes to this. The reason why I respect the Gracies is that they gave the wake up call that all martial arts practitioners needed, that we have probably neglected our grappling way too long. Also, is it realistic to say, without being a bigot that apparently people fight differently in different cultures? Is it safe to same that all arts might need adaptations to the threat at hand? In other works, what works in South Asia might need some adjustments when being used by someone to defend themselves in the Bronx? I know Bruce Lee made changes after encountering the differences in western fighting. I have come to the conclusion that they must fight very differently in the streets of Korea.

    My black belt example was 8+ hours. I puked twice and at the end of it I was unable to drive myself home because my legs kept cramping up for the next 4 hours afterward. I slept for 12 hours straight after it and was pretty fucked up for the next week. Today I am embarrassed of the people who wear black belts in my school. Instructors have realized that the easiest way to keep making money is to keep students moving ahead. The problem is that the student used to have to meet the criteria, now the criteria meet the student. Imagine how it feels for me to see the value of something I worked so hard to obtain lose itís meaning a little more every day. Some any martial arts instructors have fast become marketing experts who trace whatever trend seems to come down the line. Taebo may be the death of us all.

    Many of the earlier practitioners of martial arts in the U.S. were soldiers, or people who already were somewhat tough and were looking for a new way of proving it. Now it seems, as mentioned on another thread, the new students going to martial arts schools are either outright wimps, dorks, overweight people looking for something for fitness, kids whoís parents want an instructor to teach their kids the ďSelf Discipline that they are either too lazy or to incompetent to teach them, themselves. Now what we have are wimps, dorks, and overweight people with illusions that they no how to fight, but have no concept of what a real fight is like.

    Well, thatís my rant, correct me where I am wrong, let me know where I am right.



    I disagree that thinking that just jumping on someone and beating on them like a maniac will necessarily win a fight; it takes more than just cheap-shots and enthusiasm to deal with a complex situation.

    I've seen this misconception taking on a lot of popularity in these "classes" which claim that one can learn to "street-fight" with no technical knowledge or experience at all, just by beating one someone in a suit that looks like the Michelin-man-- which is appropriate, since you just get "tired" (sorry).
    These cretins likewise believe that training and conditioning are unnecessary and ineffective since the "adrenaline disrupts your thinking and coordination and engages your lizard-brain and gives you superhuman strength and endurance."

    In reality, if you go anaerobic like that, taking non-stop cheap-shots with no real training and conditioning, then you might overwhelm an idiot who knows nothing, but Mohammed Ali pretty much proved in the Frazier-fight that all the other person really has to do against such an attack is just rope-a-dope (i.e. relax and defend) until your opponent uses up all his oxygen, and then he's completely helpless as you throw a killer punch.

    The point is, that "martial artists" lose because they fail the final test, i.e. they don't compete to test their skills; this is why they play patty-cake in the sparring ring since there's nothing to be gained by fighting effectively to win-- it's all just practice.
    This fails the scientific method in that a claim must be PROVEN in order to be accepted; if my initial hypothesis is "I can fight," then I must demonstrate this to a certain standard of proof, or else assume that I don't (this is known as the philosophy of "pragmatism," i.e. "put up or shut up".)

    Likewise, if you haven't proven your hypothesis, then you'll be in doubt of your ability, and you'll be more interested in avoiding the fight than winning it, since even if you have a 1% chance of losing then you'd still be a fool to continue with those odds in a life-and-death situation (would you REALLY risk your life on a 99% basis of surviving, if you didn't know the payoff?)

    Finally, if you haven't faced a certain critical situation before, then your brain will literally paralyze you with hesitation when you're in it for the first time, so competition is necessary to condition you to the concept of actually engaging someone who's REALLY trying to beat you (which is another strike against these "model muggers" whom you know are just play-acting-- because when you know it's for REAL, you'll get a "reality check."
  8. Rogue is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 8:39pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Many people seem be under the illusion that a street fight between two people has the same tempo as the sparring done in most martial arts schools between two trained fighters."

    Then again even ring and street fighters fall prey to muggers. Street fighting is easy compared to getting smacked in the head with a 2X4 or brick. While you and DanS make some good points you also can't mistake ring fighting as the antedote for all street violence. I do believe that MMA training with emphasis on cardio, getting to body used to taking damage and live practice fills a good amount of the bill. It's not hard to add that training to classical styles though membership may drop when people start getting bruised. CDT anyone?

    BTW I practice two classical styles and am confident in their street effectiveness of their techniques. Now I just have to make sure I'm street effective.


    Edited by - rogue on December 24 2002 19:51:37

    Edited by - rogue on December 24 2002 19:55:45
  9. TKD Boxer is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 9:26pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most traditional MA do suck and yes there sparing does go that way, but in MMA sparring I have seen it more towards Boxing until one of them just kinda straight blasts the oter and goes to close range with knees and ebows and then to the ground. And yes, majority of MA schools teach crappy sparring.
  10. Rogue is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/24/2002 9:36pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Most traditional MA do suck"
    Which traditional styles don't? What makes them not suck?
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