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  1. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 9:02am

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Little Idea
    (which is another reason many boxers hurt there hands when they get into it at the club on the weekend, they never learned to hit with the proper form because the gloves let them get away with it.)
    Although heavy gloves do weaken the form of your fist somewhat, the REAL reason that boxers would break their hands is that gloves and wraps have allowed them to punch much harder than their unprotected hands can handle.

    As for Jack Dempsey, keep in mind that he's only one example. Had his theory on punching been truely superior, it would have taken over.

    Lastly, if you say that most punching injuries are caused by punching with the two much larger and harder knuckles, please back this up with medical stats. Personally, I'm not inclined to believe you when the classic "boxer's fracture" is when the last/smallest metacarpal is broken and slips out of place.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 7/06/2004 9:08am at .
  2. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 9:14am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by drake
    Actually I believe WC takes from the old school bare knuckle boxers. They used to punch faces all day and never break thier hands. Do you know how? With the vertical fist. Since WC doesnt fight with gloves they didnt evolve past that.

    They align the hand and wrist with the forearm allowing the force to disperse more properly along the muscles and bones. It is less powerful than a typical contemporary boxers punch but it is safer with less risk of injury due to the bone and muscle alignment.
    I love you man. You said it better than I could, thanks.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
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  3. drake is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 9:34am


     Style: BJJ, Muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Shumagorath
    Although heavy gloves do weaken the form of your fist somewhat, the REAL reason that boxers would break their hands is that gloves and wraps have allowed them to punch much harder than their unprotected hands can handle.
    Yes but what does it take to punch with more power? Different body mechanics. When you punch without gloves you should use different body mechanics to spare your hands from injury. That is what I said the first time. When you are boxing, you should punch with full power simply because you can with all that hand protection. Even with MMA gloves you are fine. Why punch for safety when the gloves give you safety?

    As for Jack Dempsey, keep in mind that he's only one example. Had his theory on punching been truely superior, it would have taken over.
    It did take over. For the many years bare-knuckle boxing duels took place. Look at all the lovely literature this thread has linked you to. The only reason it didnt "take over" is because gloves were introduced which actually allowed boxer to hit harder without injuring thier hands. Why punch the old way if the other guy is using every trick in the book to beat you, even his new gloves?

    Lastly, if you say that most punching injuries are caused by punching with the two much larger and harder knuckles, please back this up with medical stats. Personally, I'm not inclined to believe you when the classic "boxer's fracture" is when the last/smallest metacarpal is broken and slips out of place.
    I wouldn't say that but I would say to re-read my quote about WC punch structure to learn about how the dispersion of force works. You are actually hitting with the entire hand not just the knuckles. Admittedly it is a weaker punch but you never heard about old school boxers and broken hands. When you have a boxer's fracture it is made with the classic straight jab or straight right not with a proper vertical fist. If you punch with a correctly aligned vertical fist you will see the pressure actually moves to the wrist and sometimes you wont feel anything at all. Just read the article that was posted, its a great resource.

    Oh and JackHanma, I box so STFU.
  4. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 9:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The vertical fist is used by many systems, Isshin-ryu for example.
    But in Isshin-ryu theyadvocate the first 2 knuckles also, and they "uppercut" to the head.
    By the way, many bareknuckle boxers ALSO uppercuted to the head ( they would hit with the knuckles, either the first to OR last three, and their palms would be facing SLIGHTLY up at about a 45 deg.)
  5. drake is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 9:50am


     Style: BJJ, Muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not really. In bare-knuckle boxing, there weren't many power blows due to the fact that grappling was allowed. So many went for takedowns which were round enders.
  6. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 9:50am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even though WC people are instructed to punch with the three smaller knuckles, I believe it is reasonable to assume that the whole purpose of doing that is to hit with a wider surface of the fist, distributing the power more evenly and avoiding fractures. As that (excellent) article mentioned, this does sacrifice punching power, but on the other hand you can punch without gloves facing a lesser risk of fracturing your hands.

    I, for one, try to hit with the two middle knuckles, as I said before. It feels more comfortable, and the strength is indeed distributed evenly along the fist.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  7. Little Idea is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 4:39pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT(& Prenatal Yoga)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Shumagorath
    Although heavy gloves do weaken the form of your fist somewhat, the REAL reason that boxers would break their hands is that gloves and wraps have allowed them to punch much harder than their unprotected hands can handle.
    Not, the real reason is that any 100 pound girl can punch hard enough to break UNCONDITIONED hands.


    As for Jack Dempsey, keep in mind that he's only one example. Had his theory on punching been truely superior, it would have taken over.
    It's really fucking easy. Punch how you want. Do you know how much Dempsey weighed the first time he fought for the heavy weight title? Do you know how much his opponent weighed? Do you know the outcome?

    Lastly, if you say that most punching injuries are caused by punching with the two much larger and harder knuckles, please back this up with medical stats. Personally, I'm not inclined to believe you when the classic "boxer's fracture" is when the last/smallest metacarpal is broken and slips out of place.
    I don't see what is so confusing. In your world boxers are trying to hit with what knuckles? Is is the first two? If it is, how do you explain the classic 'Boxer's Fracture'? They are trying to punch with the big two, right? But the little one is broken?!??

    What is the question again?

    If you are happy with your punches, by all means just live in your happy little big knuckle punching bubble.
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

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  8. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 4:49pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "First, its Hanma and I have said it before and again; if you call me Hanna again I will bite your arms off and beat you with them. And that's a promise."
    HANNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    "Second, if you miss the "soft" target you'll break your hand."
    U dont say. I know this... i said i shattered my 3rd knuckle on my right hand...

    "Stop trying to strike with you small knuckles idiots; its unnatural and dangerous."
    Some might say the same thing about hitting with tthe first two knuckles. You have to have good wrist alignment so that your hand doesn't collapse on impact - you could injure your wrist.

    "Use you vertical fists on hooks and odd angles...like boxers do and always make contact with larger bones..duh."
    hooks and odd angles i like. hitting larger bones? so if you go up against a 300 pound linebacker, youre going to punch him in the arm? or in the chest? or any other big bone that wont do any damage when u hit them?

    "Aside from this issue I don't really care what you Wing Chun people do...go practice your trapping now."
    Mr. Hanna, I am sure there are alot of people who really don't care what YOU mantisshrimpfu people do.....
  9. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 4:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  10. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 4:53pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Guys. Come on. chill. I don't want the Wing Chun FAQ turning into a flame war over punching technique.

    My opinion is that both methods of striking are excellent, and each have their uses. Believe me, i have tested my WT punch very very frequently, a hard right hand WT punch with a lop sau or some other technique has just as much power as my right cross - and yes, i do know how to throw a proper right cross. My instructor is a boxing instructor too, you know.
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