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  1. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 7:31pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by supercrap
    *bends over*

    MOre freddy! MORE!
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  2. waapwoop is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 7:50pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My God.. I have never seen so many posts by the one person in a row.

    Freddy: Firstly, I'll correct your english, its STRUCTURE. And yes, chi sau trains structure and relaxation.. reread supercraps post if you don't understand. I gave you a basic example of how chi sau can give you an advantage in a fight, but it would never work without the structure and relaxation to back it up.

    Now, seeing as you still don't understaand what we are saying, i'll simply say that no matter what we say, you will come back with an illogical arguement portraying what we already know... that you are misunderstanding out posts.

    See, i don't have to elaborate. I chose to do so on occasion.

    As for the UFC comment you made... I have never seen chi sau in UFC, so i don't know why you brought it up. As I said before, if you don't know about something, don't say it.
    Unless you have any valid questions, I won't answer.... I really don't feel like going in circles and i see no point in repeating myself any more. So, quite simply, if you don't understand what i am saying, we'll just leave it at that.
  3. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 7:50pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not really bending over for you you know, don't come knocking.
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  4. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 8:30pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by waapwoop
    My God.. I have never seen so many posts by the one person in a row.

    Freddy: Firstly, I'll correct your english, its STRUCTURE. And yes, chi sau trains structure and relaxation.. reread supercraps post if you don't understand. I gave you a basic example of how chi sau can give you an advantage in a fight, but it would never work without the structure and relaxation to back it up.

    And where did I say I was against structure and relaxation.

    Let me quote AGAIN:

    Well read the original premise statement:
    Originally posted by supercrap
    I would like to add that people all talk about the touch reflex training in chi sau. I find that is almost secondary. The main thing is to improve your basics of structure and relaxation.
    .....
    Same with chi sau. It's not just learning to move your hands really fast or something like that.
    So supercrap's statement is :
    1 Touch reflex is SECONDARY
    2 The MAIN training of chi sau is for STRUCTOR and RELAXATION
    3 Chi Sau is NOT to move your hands really fast (or something like that)

    This is not what exactly what William Cheung says. (I'm using him as an example).


    Last edited by Freddy; 7/28/2004 8:32pm at .
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  5. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 8:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by waapwoop
    My God.. I have never seen so many posts by the one person in a row.


    Now, seeing as you still don't understaand what we are saying, i'll simply say that no matter what we say, you will come back with an illogical arguement portraying what we already know... that you are misunderstanding out posts.

    See, i don't have to elaborate. I chose to do so on occasion.

    As for the UFC comment you made... I have never seen chi sau in UFC, so i don't know why you brought it up. As I said before, if you don't know about something, don't say it.
    Unless you have any valid questions, I won't answer.... I really don't feel like going in circles and i see no point in repeating myself any more. So, quite simply, if you don't understand what i am saying, we'll just leave it at that.
    I wouldnt have to make so many posts if you stayed in one topic.

    Actually the reason you dont elaborate is because your full of it. And CANT back up what you have said and CANY give a logical rebuttal to my counter arguments and statements. I brought up UFC in reponse to some of the comments made by you and as providng some references. You havnt provided any refrences nor answered my questions.
    All you have done is make more shallow remarks. Thas has no substance. Actually it just proves you shouldnt talk because you dont know what you are talking about.

    Like I said make some quotes and we can go quote by quote.
    Last edited by Freddy; 7/28/2004 8:43pm at .
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  6. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 8:40pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by supercrap
    I'm not really bending over for you you know, don't come knocking.
    Oh yeah! A very intelligent post.
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  7. supercrap is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 8:41pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Who gives a crap about William Cheung?

    I'm in a good mood, so I will spell it out for you one more time.

    Touch reflex is useless if your body does not have the ability to deliver or deflect hard strikes. So what if you have super fast hands? If you don't have good structure to go with it, you can have all the speed and reflexes you want and they aren't going to help you because you can't stop or deliver an effective strike.

    So the most important things to practice are the basics. Get better structure, and learn to relax that structure.

    Structure - think of it as coordination, alignment, having a good stance or footwork, and basically using your body effectively.

    Relaxation - think of this as the more relaxed you are (I don't mean turning to jelly, I mean maintaining a relaxed structure) then the better you will be able to: move quickly, deflect strikes, and deliver strikes. Another consequence of relaxation is that your sensitivity will increase. So, that means your reflexes will improve. Simply, to improve reflexes, you need to be more sensitive.

    I don't give a crap about William Cheung and how he trains WC okay? It's nothing to do with me...

    Lastly, I don't know how else to explain it to you other than my own, first hand, evidence... The more I practice chi sau, the more often, the better I get at staying relaxed and having good structure. This manifests itself in being able to manipulate (read: throw around, control, strike) people who are tense and have sloppy structure. Ergo, chi sau improves my relaxation and structure. And the same can be said for balance.

    I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, nor am I saying that WC chi sau is the best way for everybody else to do it. It works pretty good for me though.

    Oh, and FYI, I've been training about 4 years.
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  8. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 8:52pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by supercrap
    Who gives a crap about William Cheung?

    I'm in a good mood, so I will spell it out for you one more time.

    Touch reflex is useless if your body does not have the ability to deliver or deflect hard strikes. So what if you have super fast hands? If you don't have good structure to go with it, you can have all the speed and reflexes you want and they aren't going to help you because you can't stop or deliver an effective strike.

    So the most important things to practice are the basics. Get better structure, and learn to relax that structure.

    Structure - think of it as coordination, alignment, having a good stance or footwork, and basically using your body effectively.

    Relaxation - think of this as the more relaxed you are (I don't mean turning to jelly, I mean maintaining a relaxed structure) then the better you will be able to: move quickly, deflect strikes, and deliver strikes. Another consequence of relaxation is that your sensitivity will increase. So, that means your reflexes will improve. Simply, to improve reflexes, you need to be more sensitive.

    I don't give a crap about William Cheung and how he trains WC okay? It's nothing to do with me...

    Lastly, I don't know how else to explain it to you other than my own, first hand, evidence... The more I practice chi sau, the more often, the better I get at staying relaxed and having good structure. This manifests itself in being able to manipulate (read: throw around, control, strike) people who are tense and have sloppy structure. Ergo, chi sau improves my relaxation and structure. And the same can be said for balance.

    I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, nor am I saying that WC chi sau is the best way for everybody else to do it. It works pretty good for me though.

    Oh, and FYI, I've been training about 4 years.

    "Touch reflex is useless if your body does not have the ability to deliver or deflect hard strikes. So what if you have super fast hands? If you don't have good structure to go with it, you can have all the speed and reflexes you want and they aren't going to help you because you can't stop or deliver an effective strike."

    I NEVER said I disagree that structure ISNT important. You need all of the above. You still havnt adress some of my other questions. Boxers, kick boxers, Muay Thai fighters have effective structure and guess what. They dont do chi sau. Please explain more about that.

    "Oh, and FYI, I've been training about 4 years."
    Which is fair response. I originally started in 1987 or 1988 [ (one of those years.) How does all these years fly by so quickly??? I must be getting old.]. The style I took was very similar to Cripple Wong's system (I make fun of him now).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    "I'm not saying this is the only way to do it, nor am I saying that WC chi sau is the best way for everybody else to do it. It works pretty good for me though. "

    Okay no problem thats fair. :)
    Last edited by Freddy; 7/28/2004 8:55pm at .
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  9. supercrap is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 9:01pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. Boxers, kickboxers, muay thai, judo, whatever, all have structure and balance and everything else. But notice how they are all considered different styles? They do things slightly differently, and achieve a similar result. Now, you can add my Wing Chun to that list. It's just another way to do it. Otherwise their would only be one martial art that the whole planet practices, if one was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be the most effective at producing those attributes. As it stands, there are many ways to do it. My way is one of them.

    I believe there are similar things to chi sau in other arts. They may perform it slightly differently and give it a different name, I wouldn't know, because I haven't spent very long in any of those arts. Something called hubbud in FMA? Or something? Tai chi push hands? (although, it seems you don't like that tai chi crap!), even wrestlers, don't they do something where they vie for a better position in a clinch range? I have seen clips of mark coleman training with mark kerr, and they stand close together, rolling their arms over and under, going for position, control, setting up the nest move, etc. The muay thai clinch is similar isn't it? Even BJJ, they roll, not only to improve submissions but to improve all aspects of their fight game. Chi sau is the same idea. We even call it rolling. It is a training tool to develop your attributes. Same as all of the above, it's just another way to do it.
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  10. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 9:28pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thats kool.:)


    ---------------------------------------------------------
    "hubbud in FMA?"? You mean mean "Hubbai"???

    Paul Vunak teaches that in some of his tapes. He learnt it from the one and only Dan Inosantos.:cool:
    Last edited by Freddy; 7/28/2004 9:33pm at .
    Ghost of Charles Dickens

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