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  1. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2004 11:45pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Freddy, read my post. As waapwoop and I used to train at the same school, we will most likely say similar things. And, I wrote that post just for you! shucks!
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  2. waapwoop is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2004 11:55pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by ronin69
    Really? how so?
    Maybe the best your school can offer is demonstrations... we concentrate more on other things.
  3. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 12:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Response to supercrap.

    "You don't think that striking, sticking, evading, counter attacking, or redirection have anything at all to do with balance?

    Let me explain it for you.

    "You are improving your balance because the first thing you need to be able to attack is balance. If you have none, then your attack will be useless, you will probably push yourself in the opposite direction. Chi sau trains you to do this. This leads on to..."

    Attacking someone elses balance does not improve your balance. read the logic of your statement. Why do you think Matt Thornton speaks of Aliveness. You learn balance in motion. As for sticking you show me a UFC fight that it was used. Like if you read my post I said balance in Motion (NOT STILLNESS). Have you ever even tried judo. At least they understand what balance in motion is.

    "Relaxation. In order to be able to stay grounded and generate force and stay quick, you need to be relaxed. If you are not relaxed in chi sau, you will quickly lose your balance and be pushed and pulled around. So you need relaxation and balance, both of which chi sau trains. This leads on to..."

    Please explain how is chi sau "relaxation" is used in fighting (in particular chi sau). Thats why Thorton says about dead arts vs aliveness. A judoka has a hundred more times better understanding of balance. If you actually elaborated more it would help.

    "The ability to control your partner. If you want to hit without being hit, you need to be able to control the other person. Through chi sau training you develop the ability to be able to cover the other person's attacks whilst delivering your own. You cannot do this without a good sense of balance, or relaxation, or structure. By practicing chi sau you are practicing these things. This leads on to structure..."

    So your going to tell me that because this alledge ability to control your partner using chi sau is going to have applications in a real fight? Show me one example in the UFC or Pride or san shou fights. Wrestlers has alot better understanding of of teh ability to control your partner.

    "If you have no structure, then you can't attack. Think of it in REALLY basic terms as strength (but this is only an analogy.) the one with the more strength will be able to attack freely. Now, structure is almost a substitute for strength. If you are stronger, you don't need any of the above, you can just muscle your way through. Structure brings the playing field level again by allowing you to more effectively coordinate your body, and release incoming pressure. By training chi sau, your structure will improve as you learn to deal with attacks and deliver your own effectively. "

    Of course structure is important. This is not hardly a good way (in wing chun) to learn structure . And even less learining structure in a defensive manner. You can learn structure by actually hitting a punching bag. You will either generate the proper force through your legs etc up to your arms etc and out or not. One of the predominat probelems with alot of wing chun students is that they leave their head and chin exposed and a good boxer or kick boxer will nail you for that. Boxers dont do chi sau. Is it an act of God that they have good structor. I dont think so.


    "No, what is bullshit is people who have no idea about wing chun claiming that all the fancy flapping arms crap will work without a good grasp of the basics. Wing chun will not, and does not, work, if you try to apply all the movements without the basics I mentioned. Basically, you need Relaxation and structure. These aren't even unique to wing chun. I'm not claiming that. (anymore! )'
    Well first of all I NEVER said wing chun doesnt work. Read my posts again. I said theres alot of B.S. being perpetuated out there by alot of wing chun schools. So when are you going to a throw down? Take the acid test.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    (That "relaxation" remark bit irks me even more. Sounds like Tai chi crap. And also "structor" sounds like the same Tai chi crap.)

    "Hmm. Well all I know is that it allows me to punch hard and deflect blows effectively. So it's not crap to me."

    I guess thats why those into kuntao always hit and move faster than most guys in many of the wing chun schools.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    In a real fight you and your opponent wont be at touch distance for any long length of period

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Please, don't get chi sau (a training tool) confused with fighting. That's like saying 'There's no point hitting a heavy bag because in real life, your opponent won't be made of leather and strung up on the ceiling.' Whatever contact you do make in a fight, chi sau helps you to be able to deal with that contact and strike through. "

    That why Thorton say that certain arts ack aliveness. Read my post. I said chi sau is good for REACTION training. I NEVER said Chi sau was entirely worthless. Read his original statements that he made.

    (unless theres a full clinch) and the last thing your opponent is going to do is co-operate with you. Its more likely you and your opponet would dart in and out of each other contact range (or clinch together). If you want to learn proper balance its not by standing still its by learning it in motion (and the same with positioning)."

    How long have you been into martial arts. Ive been into for aprox 25 yrs.
    Last edited by Freddy; 7/28/2004 5:42pm at .
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  4. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 12:19am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I suck at being a keyboard warrior, so I shut up now. Besides I don't wanna be another WC person who talks in circles to people who don't wanna know...

    If I lived in the states, I'd love to do some training with you. But I don't. Also, I practice BJJ, and am not entirely ignorant of their training methodologies. (BJJ being similar to judo, no?)

    Basically.

    1. I don't practice chi sau standing still.
    2. Chi sau is a drill / exercise, not a fighting technique.
    3. Learning how to control someone IS applicable to fighting.
    4. Learning how to relax IS applicable to fighting.
    5. Learning to have good balance IS applicable to fighting.
    6. Chi sau is used to improve these things.

    Question for you:

    "I guess thats why those into kuntao always hit and move faster than most guys in many of the wing chun schools. "

    Do you have video proof for this? What are the exact, official statistics? Hehe.

    Anyway. I don't want to sound rude, but your post shows that whatever wing chun you have been exposed to, it's nothing like what I practice, so I really don't feel the need to defend these ideas that strongly.

    Besides, reading bullshido got me to start doing BJJ, what else do you want!!??
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  5. waapwoop is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 12:26am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Freddy, it can be explained again and again, but you won't understand.

    I'll give the chi sau question a go. In very very simple terms, and a very basic explanation... or an example...

    OK... I throw a punch, you block it... instead of throwing another punch, or pulling my arm back, i am going to get that original punch through, my arm should feel lthe path of least resistance to my original target.

    Now, can you see an advantage in that situation? If you are in range, and I have thrown a punch, that my punch will get through, even if you try to block. Of course if the path of least resistance is still too hard to get through, this is where trapping comes in, however i doubt it would get to this point.

    Another example... you attempt to strike, instead of blocking, i strike back along the same line of attack, now my arm if it is in range, will attempt to strike you, and with chi sau skills it will attempt to knock your arm out of the way at the same time.

    Now, can you see an advantage in this situation?
  6. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 6:16am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Super crap has caught a big dose of the correct.
  7. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 7:35am

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     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by waapwoop
    Maybe the best your school can offer is demonstrations... we concentrate more on other things.
    Well, no need to go any further after an idiotic reply like that.
    YOU give WC a bad name.
  8. waapwoop is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 7:57am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, if you don't understand, don't talk.
  9. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 8:10am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My school is kyokushin AND Judo, Dick, our demos are EXACTLY how we fight.
    And if you have more importanr things to do than demos, DON'T DO THEM.
  10. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2004 2:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by waapwoop
    Freddy, it can be explained again and again, but you won't understand.

    I'll give the chi sau question a go. In very very simple terms, and a very basic explanation... or an example...

    OK... I throw a punch, you block it... instead of throwing another punch, or pulling my arm back, i am going to get that original punch through, my arm should feel lthe path of least resistance to my original target.

    Now, can you see an advantage in that situation? If you are in range, and I have thrown a punch, that my punch will get through, even if you try to block. Of course if the path of least resistance is still too hard to get through, this is where trapping comes in, however i doubt it would get to this point.

    Another example... you attempt to strike, instead of blocking, i strike back along the same line of attack, now my arm if it is in range, will attempt to strike you, and with chi sau skills it will attempt to knock your arm out of the way at the same time.

    Now, can you see an advantage in this situation?

    Well read the original premise statement:
    Originally posted by supercrap
    I would like to add that people all talk about the touch reflex training in chi sau. I find that is almost secondary. The main thing is to improve your basics of structure and relaxation.
    .....
    Same with chi sau. It's not just learning to move your hands really fast or something like that.
    So supercrap's statement is :
    1 Touch reflex is SECONDARY
    2 The MAIN training of chi sau is for STRUCTOR and RELAXATION
    3 Chi Sau is NOT to move your hands really fast (or something like that)

    This is not what exactly what William Cheung says. (I'm using him as an example).

    As for your above statement like I said on my other post that I'm all FOR touch reflex/reaction training. Read my posts again.

    "Freddy, it can be explained again and again, but you won't understand."
    Please quote and provide specific examples.
    Perhaps its not I dont understand but rather that YOU dont understand what I said.

    Originally posted by supercrap
    I suck at being a keyboard warrior, so I shut up now. Besides I don't wanna be another WC person who talks in circles to people who don't wanna know...

    Its more like you cant back up my rebuttal made about your post. More shallow remarks.
    Last edited by Freddy; 7/28/2004 5:53pm at .
    Ghost of Charles Dickens

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