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  1. waapwoop is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 7:31am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    e_pac: I used it as an example. It doesn't matter where yiou stand, you still have a centre. It was just easier to explain the theory that way. At no point did I say the square stance was crap.

    OK, so its not that hard to get, hit something on the side, and it can spin. hit something in the centre, it penetrates. Simple.
  2. Jolly_Roger is offline

    Lord Of the Rhymes

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 9:23am


     Style: Pimpin/Tango-thanks Xango

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Omar
    Omar . . . . your local WC theory police enforcer. :)
    Thanks!
    That post above is quite cool!
    Canuckyokushin:

    These women can do back flips right over my head and still land on there feet .GRrrrrrrr!

    feedback:

    THAT'S NOTHING, I USED TO KNOW SOME 12 YEAR-OLDS WHO COULD FIT INSIDE A SUITCASE AND STAY ALIVE FOR 7 OR WAS IT 6 HOURS
  3. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 6:16pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    um

    Centreline theory -

    Attack and defend the centre. By attacking the centre you give your opponent a limited selection of responses. Defend, go around, or attack back. If the opponent defends, then trapping and controlling can be used. If the opponent tries to go around, then your attack will go straight down the centre to the target. If they decide to attack back, then what is learnt in chi sau, not the actualy movements of chi sau but the attributes of focus, relaxed power and hand control, come into play. If they choose to ignore the centre then your attack will go through.

    Forehead, between the eyes, nose, lips, chin, throat, sternum, stomach, nuts... these are all on the centreline, so by attacking here, we can do a lot of damage. The main targets which are not on the centreline are the ribs, the temple, and perhaps the outer leg. But if you decide to go for one of them, you can leave your centre open to attack. Hence wing chun attacks down the centre.

    It doesnt only attack the centre however, up close I have no qualms about using hooking attacks. IF the way straight is blocked and you are very close to the person, the time difference between a circular and a straight strike is almost zero, so you can choose between the two.

    RElaxation theory -

    While not unique to wing chun, it is highly emphasised. Put basically it means as relaxed as possible for the fastest speed, reaction times, tactile sensitivity and coordination of bodywieght. Unnecessarily tense muscles isolate force, allowing you to apply force only one direction at a time and restricting your ability to change direction of force as well as limits the amount of bodyweight you can use in your strike. Relaxation allows people to use more of their bodymass in their movements. This is where the myth of wing chun allowing small people to beat up big people came from. It just gives them a better chance by making them better able to use what little bodyweight they have.

    The wing chun stance -

    Much laughed at, usually misunderstood. In fact the stance is just a snaphsot of a moving person in that position. Rarely should a WC person stay in that position for long. They will be either advancing with a step or kicking. The most important thing about the stance is to be able to keep your balance and move freely, and that is it. You use your stance as your base to deliver power, but it all comes down to balance. If you can strike hard and keep balance, even when you meet resistance,. then the stance is working.

    Of course none of this means a thing unless it is trained 'alive.' But I just wrote that to give my 0.02$ on some of the theories and maybe bring the FAQ back to an FAQ... eh das moose.

    I feel sorry for you guys that you are surround by crappy WC to have such a low opinion of it. Even an untrained monkey can punch something hard, so for a WC school to have weak punches is pretty unbelievable... Also, all this nonsense about WC hitting harder or boxers hitting harder... Where are the statistics? Do all boxers punch with exactly the same force? Do all WC people? Of course not, thats stupid. I have been punched by a WC person and it felt like a fly on my cheek, and I have been punched by other WC people where I have ended up on the floor gasping for breath and wondering if my chest was broken.

    As you all know it comes down to the person and how they train. The system is practically secondary. Use this thread as a way to ask WC people why they train in that way, rather than sling mud which, although it is fun, is ultimately pretty unproductive.
  4. Equipoise is offline
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    Certified Fitness Trainer

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 6:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Chemical Assistance

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah I agree with you on that one. It's the practicioner, not the style

    I've now become enlightened
    I've decided to drop Wing Chun and learn Ninja Mind Control. Asida Kim R00lz!..

    .i.. ^ ^ ..i.
  5. JackHanma is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 7:55pm


     Style: MantisShrimpFu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Omar
    Most Chinese styles have you standing pretty verticle most of the time. If you lean forward to open up more to uppercuts and if you actually bob under punches boxing style, you open yourself up more to knees. So a more verticle asance lends itself to slipping horizontally or even leaning back a bit to evade.
    Agree about the knees during the bob and weave but don't about the uppercuts. The problem with the vertical stance is the head alignment and the fact that you just maximized the size of your opponents target area by standing straight up. The head alignment straight when allows for great possible head rotation. A striking KO is caused by excessive head rotation causing the blood to stop flowing to the brain after a hit. So logic would tell you that your head position should limit possible head rotation NOT increase it.

    Originally posted by Omar

    The left jab to the chin - You didn't say which guy so I'll explain both.

    Joy can defend with a bong sau.
    The other guy with a fook sau.

    Their hands are already in contact so it's really impossible to be fast enough to get to his face with the lead hand without him being able to stop it.
    What is a bong sau or a fook sau? If we are striking in a fight why would our hands be in contact? Even if there is contact if my hand if higher than your contact hand and I have a direct shot...I am going to hit before your response unless you have reflexes that are way approve normal...Ali like reflexs. Your path of redirction plus the reflex time to tigger the block can't physically be faster than the straight line punch to your face...provided I don't telegraph the punch.

    Originally posted by Omar

    liver -
    Joy's liver is covered by his elbow.
    The other guys liver is not in danger because joys hand is on the inside and would have to get to the outside and turn him counterclockwise to get a liver shot in.

    Solar plexus - completely covered on both sides as they are both attempting to hold the centerline. You have to go through the centerline to get to the solar plexus.

    Where we looking at the same picture? Where in the picture is he guarding the Solar Plexus?
  6. Gogiel is offline

    Strangler - On Probation in Trollshido

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 7:57pm


     Style: all

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    so if boxers threw and still throw vertical fists and they did it with a bent elbow upwards how did or do they not connetct with the last two knuckles like you said is bad for the hand?
  7. Darting Fingers is offline
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    Fancy a milkshake?

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 8:15pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "What is a bong sau or a fook sau? If we are striking in a fight why would our hands be in contact? Even if there is contact if my hand if higher than your contact hand and I have a direct shot...I am going to hit before your response unless you have reflexes that are way approve normal...Ali like reflexs. Your path of redirction plus the reflex time to tigger the block can't physically be faster than the straight line punch to your face...provided I don't telegraph the punch."

    The idea is that you can become much faster through chi-sau, touch reflex.
    "Pussyhole"
  8. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 8:18pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hence 'sticky hands.'

    You move, I move. There isn't reaction time. WC Person will stick to you like a watch on your wrist. You can't move so fast that your watch falls off, can you?
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
    Scramble Stuff
  9. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 11:02pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem with the vertical stance is the head alignment and the fact that you just maximized the size of your opponents target area by standing straight up.

    You don't shrink the target area by bending forward. You just shrink the legal target area for boxing. Overhands to the back of head get easier. Entrances into guillitine gets easier. This past week I've been kind of pushing my Shifu to give me some guidance on what kind of on guard stance he likes. He had some opinions but basically he kept saying that you just stand naturally and don't even need to raise your hands. *grrrr* I just couldn't accept that. . . . and then someone put up this clip: http://www.joewoodward.btinternet.co...zu_Imanari.zip

    Amazing.

    So logic would tell you that your head position should limit possible head rotation NOT increase it.

    OR....to keep your head farther away from powerfull hooks OR... to stand in a more mobile posture emphasising evasion rather than 'armament'. A lot of boxers like to hide bhind the lead shoulder but many don't. The old Foreman style seemed like a shoulder huncher but Ali mostly fought from a nice tall vertical stance.

    What is a bong sau or a fook sau?

    Bong sau:

    www.wingchun.hk.com/Sifu_bong.jpg

    Fook Sau:

    www.wingchun.hk.com/Sifu_demo_fook_2.jpg

    If we are striking in a fight why would our hands be in contact?

    You punch. I block. Now we are in contact.

    Even if there is contact if my hand if higher than your contact hand and I have a direct shot...I am going to hit before your response unless you have reflexes that are way approve normal...Ali like reflexs. Your path of redirction plus the reflex time to tigger the block can't physically be faster than the straight line punch to your face...provided I don't telegraph the punch.
    Thank you for the wonderfull summery of why they practice Chisau. Your contact reflexes are much faster. You don't need to see--->interpret--->react--->act. Through your tactile senses you create a continuous feedback loop. If we start with our arms in contact, I can defend ANY punch you through at me even blindfolded. The only way you could punch me would be to break off, disconnecting and then throwing from there. So their strategy is to throw there arms up in the centerline expecting to intercept whatever you throw their way and then the instant contact is made to rely on tactile, not visual skills.

    Where we looking at the same picture? Where in the picture is he guarding the Solar Plexus?



    Guy on the right has his left hand in front of the solar plexus.

    Guy on left has his right fist AND his lleft elbow in the way.
    Last edited by Omar; 7/12/2004 11:09pm at .
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  10. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2004 11:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Flawed metaphor, supercrap.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


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