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  1. Little Idea is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 2:12pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT(& Prenatal Yoga)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is the basic boiled down reasoning on why I believe aligning the punch for the bottom 3 knuckles is safer for 4th and 5th metacarpal.

    Bones that are cylindrical can take the most force when the force is aligned with the longitudinal axis.

    Without getting too technical on the physics side here is an example: go down to home depot and pick up a 1/2" dowel. (one that is 2-3 feet long) Now put one end on the ground and put weight(force) STRAIGHT down the dowel and into the ground. Unless the wood is unsound, it should hold quite a bit as long as the force is straight down. Do the same thing except now push down at a slight angle. The dowel will bend, buckle and break.



    I know it is a cartoony picture, but that principle is basically the same thing that causes a boxer's fracture. The force of the punch is not aligned with the longitutinal axis of the bone that is absorbing the impact.

    I think we agree that these are the smaller and therefore weaker bones. I think it makes sense to punch with these bones aligned with the direction of the force.

    I've tried it both ways and this also feels more natural for me, but that doesn't mean I don't think any of these punches won't work for achieving the KTFO.

    Of course, I've also seen my friend break his 3rd metacarpal on a dude's skull THROUGH 12 oz boxing gloves (nighty night).
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

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  2. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 2:38pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WHO the **** punches like that ?????
  3. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 2:39pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Screw which knuckles we hit with, who can fucking tell ????
    Its all about the positioning of the elbow.
  4. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 3:29pm

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by ronin69
    Screw which knuckles we hit with, who can fucking tell ????
    Its all about the positioning of the elbow.
    OK, what is you preferred elbow position when punching? Pointing down or pointing sideways?
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
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    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 3:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pointing up.
  6. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 3:35pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seriously now,
    The natural fist, which is about the half way mark from the vertical to the horizontal, is best for elbow positioning for STRAIGHT punches to the body, the head is really a preference.
    AND to get PROPER wrist/forearm/elbow alignment, you don't hit with thre knuckles turned to align the TOP of the wrist with the forearm, you hit with the fist so that a straight line would follow the forearm bone and go through the CENTER of your fist.
  7. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 3:40pm

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting, I think I understand. My fist has this annoying tendency to turn into what you call a "natural" fist when I use a straight punch at SOME angles or when I perform a jab, do you think I should let it do so then?
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  8. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 6:33pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Little Idea



    I know it is a cartoony picture, but that principle is basically the same thing that causes a boxer's fracture. The force of the punch is not aligned with the longitutinal axis of the bone that is absorbing the impact.

    I think we agree that these are the smaller and therefore weaker bones. I think it makes sense to punch with these bones aligned with the direction of the force.

    I've tried it both ways and this also feels more natural for me,
    The essence of both our arguments is that if you end up hitting wrong you're fucked. Where some styles favor going with the greater structural integrity, you/wing chun favor looking more towards the safety of your pinkie and ring finger's metacarpals, I'm still of the opinion however that this is more awkward for your wrist.
    Of course, I've also seen my friend break his 3rd metacarpal on a dude's skull THROUGH 12 oz boxing gloves (nighty night).
    Allthatcan be said about that is, ouch, for both.
  9. Little Idea is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 8:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Dochter
    The essence of both our arguments is that if you end up hitting wrong you're fucked.
    Essentially

    Where some styles favor going with the greater structural integrity, you/wing chun favor looking more towards the safety of your pinkie and ring finger's metacarpals, I'm still of the opinion however that this is more awkward for your wrist.
    I looking more towards how I can hit hardest.

    From my personal experience, I'm of the opinion that 2 knuckle punch has LESS structural integrity through the wrist and feels much more awkward to me. Granted, all my boxing trainers are big time olde schoole and I do have considerable WT/WC training.

    I'm also of the opinion that other people are entitled to an opinion and considering that we all have different bodies each opinion might be the best in context.
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

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  10. JackHanma is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 8:15pm


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Little Idea
    You don't know ****.

    Hanma, you are the one who should shut the **** up. Seriously, you really don't know what the **** you are talking about.

    Punch however the **** you want, but most injuries to the small bones in the hand are to people trying to punch with the two big knuckles.
    Yes, I don't know what I am talking neither does my boxing coach, or my doctor. Yup, doctor and boxing coaches know nothing about the nature of hand injuries.

    Its true that most metacarpal injuries from punches invovle the larger larger metacarpals but I said that most wrist injuries are ulna side. However, You can hurt your fist using any alignment or contact points if you punch with enough force. Most injuries come from an improperly clinched fist. If you don't clinch your fist tightly and then hit something hard its very likely to cause and bone break. However, the nature of my injury was the unla side of the wrist from when contact on the three small knuckles put pressure on my wrist cause injury unla side articulation.

    Originally posted by Little Idea
    You don't know ****.

    Uhhm, BK karate guys train karate so they will obviously punch with the punches they trained.

    For one thing, any glove at all will change the way a fist can accommodate impact, even the thinnest leather glove. Furthermore MMA is in its infancy, every year or two there is a huge shift in what people think is 'the deadly'. (i.e.BJJ -> Wrestlers -> Kickboxers_who_can_sprawl -> whatever_the_ ****_Sakaraba_did -> Darth_Fedor_pounding_your_face_in_your own_guard) I'll go out on a limb and predict you will start to see some more vertical fists as the game evolves.
    When you fing some BK Karate guys that do wing chun punches let me know. And for you information there is this little thing known as Vale Tudo that been going in Brazil for more than 40 years...how many Wing Chun punches do you
    see?

    Originally posted by Little Idea

    First, there is no such thing as 'modern boxing'. If you go to 10 different boxing gyms, you will learn 10 different sets of details on how to throw a jab. Second, it doesn't make as much difference with hand wraps and gloves on. (which is another reason many boxers hurt there hands when they get into it at the club on the weekend, they never learned to hit with the proper form because the gloves let them get away with it.) Third, Boxing has punches with horizontal fist that land on the bottom three knuckles. Do you seriously try to hit with the two big knuckles when you throw hooks?
    All that part proves is that you don't know how to throw a proper hook. If you have ever done hooks with a heavy bad without your gloves you DO NOT hit with the bottom three knuckles.


    Originally posted by Little Idea


    You are just talking out your ass.

    If by 'improper fist' you mean, trying to punch with the two big knuckles. I already explained, this injury is most often cause by trying to punch with the two big knuckles. Follow your own logic here, boxers in your world are supposedly trying to punch with the two big knuckles, so how the **** are they getting hurt in metacarpal on the smallest finger?
    You failed logic class didn't you. The reason for punching with the two larger knuckles is so that you don't break you don't hurt your hand on the weaker side.


    Originally posted by Little Idea

    Actually, punching with the bottom three knuckles puts the weak side of the wrist in to a much better alignment to absorb impact. Make a fist horizontal fist aligned to punch with the two big knuckles and just look at the alignment on the ulna side. (Do it right now) If the punch isn't perfect and 'accidentally' makes impact towards the smallest knuckle, how is the wrist going to accommodate that impact?
    Just looked at it. Answer: the same as it would using the vertical fist except that I am now less likely to make contact with the small knuckles.

    Lastly, for those who keep calling me Hanna...why don't you do to my face at the next California Mcthrowdown or the Vegas Mega Throwdown? Till then be prepared for verbal retailition of the Usenet on Steriods kind....that goes for you EternalRapistmuttfucker.
    Last edited by JackHanma; 7/07/2004 8:28pm at .

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