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  1. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 7:20am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Das Moose
    Ronin69 - very much agreed. However, a direct quote from my sifu last week is "When you spar, it should look like Wing Tzun. If it doesn't, you're not doing it right." the senior students then proceeded to do a totally open drill (described in FAQ) which yes, did look like Wing Tzun.
    And I have seen Taiji used in a fight that looked like Taiji, but, I am sad to say, these seem to be cases that are far and few between.

    Much like quality Taekwon-do.
  2. blankslate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 9:50am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Much like quality Taekwon-do.
    hey, hey, watch it.
  3. blankslate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 9:52am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You forgot "WC has no footwork"
  4. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 10:00am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Standing is footwork, so is falling.
  5. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 10:06am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lol that's a very confusing statement to make, the sheet i have up on my wall for the next grade i'm goin for has over half of it devoted to footwork... in fact there are just as many footwork techniques as hand techniques.
  6. blankslate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 10:18am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Das Moose
    Lol that's a very confusing statement to make, the sheet i have up on my wall for the next grade i'm goin for has over half of it devoted to footwork... in fact there are just as many footwork techniques as hand techniques.
    Cool, that's the part that always seemed kind of awkward about WC to me. Seems like the guys just stand there waiting to counterattack with bombs.
  7. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 10:26am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The vertical alignment of the fist is a somewhat seperate issue. You can punch with the bottom three with any fist alignment, although a purely horizontal fist doesn't feel right unless it is in the context of a high hook
    I totally agree and tried to seperate the two arguments for that reason.

    Regarding your intentional twisting of the wrist to get the three knuckles in line, you're admitting you're adopting an unnatural wrist orientation that has less structural support than the natural clenching of the fist? For the purpose of force dissipation?

    If you make the classic fist, yes you are abandoning the pinkie, you're also not hitting with the pinkie.
  8. Little Idea is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 12:38pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT(& Prenatal Yoga)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Dochter
    I totally agree and tried to seperate the two arguments for that reason.
    Glory be, an almost rational discussion.

    Regarding your intentional twisting of the wrist to get the three knuckles in line, you're admitting you're adopting an unnatural wrist orientation that has less structural support than the natural clenching of the fist? For the purpose of force dissipation?
    I'm not admitting anything of the sort. The wrist orientation is not unnatural or without structural integrity.

    In fact, I almost guarantee you have put your wrist in this same orientation many times in another context to INCREASE the structural support.

    You lift weights right? Next time you happen to work out on a benchpress take a few minutes to do this experiment. Put a good amount of weight for you (something kinda heavy 4-6 range) then get set and just start to press the bar up. Look at the alignment of your wrist and feel where you have the most pressure on the palm of your hand. Is your wrist lined up so that the big two bones are almost parallel with the arm? Or is there an almost straight line from the arm through the small knuckle?

    Try to bench a heavy weight with the wrist aligned for your 'classic' fist.

    By the way, did you try any of the experiments posted in this thread or in the Dempsey article?

    If yes, what did you experience that made them unconvincing? If not, why not? Isn't that the essence of Bullshido.

    If you make the classic fist, yes you are abandoning the pinkie, you're also not hitting with the pinkie.
    Maybe you haven't been reading all my posts? Can you hit exactly what you want whenever you throw a punch? Of course, you don't mean to hit with the pinky, but fighting is chaotic and inevitably your perfect punch will eventually 'catch an edge'. This is a bad day for your pinky knuckle.
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

    Talk to TBK's boyfriend:

  9. blankslate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 12:42pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can we test this scientifically? Classic fist vs. Classic Vertical Fist

    I like the bench press example above...



    Why don't people just hit the skull targets with open hands like me and Emire do?
  10. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2004 1:15pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The bench press example isn't in my opinion a great analogy, though it does support your position. The reason being is that you are dealing with forces being exerted in different manners and at different points. In particular, when you're bench pressing you want the weight positioned over the radius and ulna as linearly as possible, you don't have to worry about the metacarpals at all. Lots of people (myself included) monkey or false grip for that reason, with the wrist turned how you describe. Hell for bench pressing you'd be fine (better maybe) chopping off the hands and screwing a U into the radius.

    In regards to punching though you have more to worry about, most notably the fourth and fifth metacarpals. And yes you're right, you're not always going to hit how or where you want. If you've already turned your wrist inwards and you miss hit though it seems intuitive that you're more likely to jack your wrist or hands than if you miss-hit and have the wrist in what is closer to the wristing position. The risk of error is the same for both, I disagree however where the greater risk of injury is.

    I'll take a look at the Dempsey exercises later today.

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