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  1. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 6:34pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Look at the location of the pinkie and ring finger as compared to the location of the index and middle finger in relation to the ulna and radius.



    How does it make any sense to punch with the outlying fingers? Why would you ignore the obviously increased structural support of one orientation over the other?

    Now I do think that striking from bare knuckle boxing is something that will likely be revisited. I am not buying though that bkboxers didn't break their hands much. If it was significantly less than modern boxers I'd be interested to know the difference in training time.
  2. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 6:45pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dochter - Yep, you pretty much summed up my thoughts on knuckles to use. When i've experimented myself on a punchbag i noticed a far higher amount of injury and pain when striking with the lower three knuckles, rather than the first two.
  3. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 6:48pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see what you are saying, but when I make a fist and look at it, it is the ring and pinky and the middle finger which are in line with my forearm. I usually punch with these three. I can punch things hard with the vertical fist, have been doing so for 4 years, and never injured myself. It's what works for you, right? Not doing something just because somebody tells you to.

    The right cross and the jab work well with a vertical fist. In my limited experience.
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  4. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 6:53pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two of the knuckles are directly in front, one slightly offset and the other way off to the side.

    Hold your arm out in front of you with your palm down.

    Where is your pinkie?

    If you are not (sub?)conciously turning your wrist, it's dangling out to the side with little support behind it.

    Vertical or horizontal is much less relevant than this simple and obvious anatomical fact.
  5. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 6:54pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by supercrap
    I see what you are saying, but when I make a fist and look at it, it is the ring and pinky and the middle finger which are in line with my forearm.
    That's because you've learned to make a fist and simulatenously turn the fist in.
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 7:07pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This reminds me of how ninjitsu people like to argue against the closed fist entirely because "you will break your hand".
  7. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 7:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Which actually makes a hell of a lot more sense than choosing an anatomically weak position, which I really don't get.

    On the other/ninja side, why would you chose to slam your wee little hand into someone's skull?
  8. supercrap is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 7:46pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    'Choosing an anatomically weak position'

    For me, the proof is in the pudding. I have been hit very very hard very many times by instructors using that fist, and the bottom 2 or 3 knuckles, and the only thing weak about it is my face when it crumples around their fist.

    I think it is an exaggeration that it is as weak as you say, and I say this because I have been doing it for 4 years without injury against a wide variety of surfaces, both human and not, and, basically, it isn't weak.

    :) I'm not going to change the way I train, which has been working for me for years, because you posted a pretty x-ray of a hand!
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  9. blankslate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 7:52pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Dochter
    Look at the location of the pinkie and ring finger as compared to the location of the index and middle finger in relation to the ulna and radius.



    How does it make any sense to punch with the outlying fingers? Why would you ignore the obviously increased structural support of one orientation over the other?

    Now I do think that striking from bare knuckle boxing is something that will likely be revisited. I am not buying though that bkboxers didn't break their hands much. If it was significantly less than modern boxers I'd be interested to know the difference in training time.
    Wow. I think I will suffer through this thread...please continue...
  10. Little Idea is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2004 8:23pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT(& Prenatal Yoga)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Dochter
    Two of the knuckles are directly in front, one slightly offset and the other way off to the side.

    Hold your arm out in front of you with your palm down.

    Where is your pinkie?

    If you are not (sub?)conciously turning your wrist, it's dangling out to the side with little support behind it.

    Vertical or horizontal is much less relevant than this simple and obvious anatomical fact.
    This is exactly the point I've been making.

    Aligning the wrist to punch with the two big knuckles leaves the pinkie dangling out to the side. Think of the angle it is making with the arm and imagine a force that impacts on the pinky in the direction of the arm. Ouch

    I VERY consciously turn the wrist so the small bones are aligned with the bones in the arm.

    The vertical alignment of the fist is a somewhat seperate issue. You can punch with the bottom three with any fist alignment, although a purely horizontal fist doesn't feel right unless it is in the context of a high hook.
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

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