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  1. IzzyDaHedgehog is offline

    Didn't so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 7:44pm


     Style: Ex-TKD, BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    I think you've made some good points.But this is a 2 year old thread.You could have just started a new thread and link it with this one.
    Nah, it's fine to resurrect an old thread as long as you're not just posting something like "Old skool boxing sux. Mike Tyson FTW!!!" At least people are using the search function.
    sudo make me a sandwich!
  2. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 8:21pm

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     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoMan
    My two cents. In some ways boxing has evolved, in some ways it has devolved. For example, the standard jab that boxers employ was *not* used in bare-knuckle brawling. In those days, the lead hand was posted as a stiff-arm and the other hand was used to punch the fighter. "The Gentleman" Jim Corbett is credited with inventing the jab as a lethal weapon, as well as using superior footwork to outbox a slugger in his match-up against John L. Sullivan.
    I've never heard that he invented the jab before. Which source says this? It seems to me James Figg would be the one who deserves the credit of the jab, as I'm sure it was more than just a stiff arm. With as much wrestling as they did, that wouldn't be advantageous.

    Since there were other weapons that were used in close-range combat, the hook and the uppercut were also not used as much. This is similar to how Muay Thai fighters generally prefer to use elbows and knees rather than punches for their close-range fighting. Having a far-out guard would actually make you eat punches, but would save you from the dirty in-fighting that was typically utilized.
    Fitzsimmons wons his HW title with an uppercut to the body.

    Most of today's power punching derives from Jack Dempsey, who figured out how to use his entire body in punching to generate momentum from the hips rather than using the shoulders to punch harder and to outlast opponents who still punched wildly. I'm not sure when bobbing, slipping, weaving, and the other mechanics of boxing began coming into play, but I've never heard them referenced in older boxing sources.
    I don't really agree with that either. Sam Langford knew about the importance of using your hips with your punches, and he was fighting about 10 years before Dempsey was. Watching Jack Johnson in action, you can see he definitely knew what he was doing with his hips too. You can see some falling steps in there as well.
  3. NoMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 8:32pm


     Style: Boxing, Judo, BJJ, M.T.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by VikingPower
    I've never heard that he invented the jab before. Which source says this? It seems to me James Figg would be the one who deserves the credit of the jab, as I'm sure it was more than just a stiff arm. With as much wrestling as they did, that wouldn't be advantageous.
    I actually gleened that from a newspaper article from back when:



    It was showcasing the fight between Sullivan and Corbett, w/ the jab being showcased as the primary invention.

    Fitzsimmons wons his HW title with an uppercut to the body.
    Against Corbett?

    don't really agree with that either. Sam Langford knew about the importance of using your hips with your punches, and he was fighting about 10 years before Dempsey was. Watching Jack Johnson in action, you can see he definitely knew what he was doing with his hips too. You can see some falling steps in there as well.
    I have to confess ignorance here. From what I've seen of old school boxing manuals, they tended to throw haymakers and rely heavily upon clinching techniques such as shin stomps and elbows. Dempsey's Championship Fighting was the first I could find with the more modern style of boxing outlined.
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 8:36pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The bare-knuckle guard stance wasn't just a stiff arm. The extended lead arm was used to keep distance, but in fact, the primary punch in old school pugilism was sometimes called the left lead-off and was equivalent to the modern jab. It was performed with the lead hand, but it was a vertical fist punch executed like a fencing lunge with full body weight behind it. Favored targets included the mark (solar plexus area), nose and eye sockets.

    Dempsey wasn't the first to discover effective punching power mechanics - they had been detailed in books by boxing teachers right back into the 1800s - but his manual did a good job of explaining them clearly.

    I've seen old movies of both Jack Johnson and Sam Langford fighting. They had astounding skills.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 8:45pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NoMan

    I have to confess ignorance here. From what I've seen of old school boxing manuals, they tended to throw haymakers and rely heavily upon clinching techniques such as shin stomps and elbows. Dempsey's Championship Fighting was the first I could find with the more modern style of boxing outlined.
    I don't know which manuals you've seen, but I've read a bunch of them and can't recall anything like a haymaker or shin stomp in any early source. The spinning elbow turns up very occasionally in sources like Fitzsimmons, where he refers to it as a pivot punch.

    The great majority of early (1800s) boxing manuals describe and illustrate a primarily outfighting style relying on linear punches to the body and face with either hand and a small but effective selection of standing throws for use in in-fighting. An increasing array of infighting punches start to appear over the decades as gloves became more common.
  6. NoMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 8:46pm


     Style: Boxing, Judo, BJJ, M.T.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Dempsey wasn't the first to discover effective punching power mechanics - they had been detailed in books by boxing teachers right back into the 1800s - but his manual did a good job of explaining them clearly.
    Do you know any of those old book names? I want to see if any of them can be had on interlibrary loan.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 8:54pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This ought to get you started ;)

    Allanson-Winn, R.G.
    Boxing (Isthmian Library)
    1895

    Amateur of eminence, An
    The Complete Art of Boxing
    1788

    Anstey, Christopher
    The Complete Art of Boxing
    1788

    Bailey, J.
    The Art and Science of Self Defence
    1830

    Bailey, J.
    The Improved Art of Self Defence
    1820

    Borrow, George
    The Romany Rye
    1857

    Brandt, Francis F.
    A Short Treatise on the Law of the Land as it Affects Pugi...
    1857

    Burns, Tommy. Scientific Boxing and Self Defence. London:
    Health and Strength, Ltd., n.d. (1908).

    CELEBRATED PUGILIST, A
    The Art and Practise of English Boxing
    1819

    CELEBRATED PUGILIST, A
    The Art and Practise of Self Defence
    1830

    Corbett, James J.
    New Ideas on Boxing
    1894

    Dempsey, Jack. Championship Fighting, Explosive Punching
    and Aggressive Defense. Ed. Jack Cuddy. NY: Prentice Hall,
    1950. (Incomparably the best boxing manual, both in its clear
    and complete description and in the high quality of the style
    described. Reflects the period 1915-1925.)

    De Witt et al (pub)
    Life of William Poole
    1854

    De Witt, Robert M.
    The Lives and Battles of Tom Sayers and J.C. Heenan
    1860

    Dick & Fitzgerald
    Dick's Manual of Boxing ...
    1890

    Donnelly, Ned J.
    Self-defence OR The Art of Boxing
    1879

    Donovan, Prof. Mike
    The Science of Boxing
    1893

    Doran, B.J.
    Science of Self Defence
    1889

    Dowling, Francis L.
    Fights for the Championship
    1855

    Dowling, Francis L.
    The Championship of England
    1860

    Dowling, Vincent G.
    Fistiana OR The Oracle of the Ring
    1841

    Earl, John Charles et al
    Boxing: The Art of Attack and Defence
    1898

    Edwards, Billy
    The Portrait Gallery of Pugilists
    1894

    Edwards, William
    Gladiators of the Prize Ring
    1895

    Egan, Pierce
    Boxiana - Volume of Plates
    1840

    Egan, Pierce
    Boxiana, Vol. I - V
    1824

    Egan, Pierce
    Sporting Anecdotes, Original and Selected
    1820

    Elmer, Prof. William. Boxing. "Spaldings' Athletic Library, Vol.
    162, No. 162." NY: American Sports Publishing Co., 1902.

    EMINENT PUGILIST, AN
    The Art and Practise of English Boxing
    1807

    EXPERIENCED PUGILIST, AN
    The Improved Art and Practise of Self Defense
    1820

    Fewtrell, Thomas. Boxing Reviewed; or, The science of
    manual defence... London: Scathcerd and Whitaker, 1790.

    Physical Culture and Self-Defense
    by Robert Fitzsimmons, 1901

    Fitzsimmons, Robert
    Robert Fitzsimmons, His Life and Battles
    1895

    Boxing: with Hints on the Art of Attack and Defense and How To Train for the Prize Ring
    by Richard K. Fox, 1889


    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    History of the Great Battle [Sull.-Kilrain]
    1889

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    History of the Prize Ring with Lives of ...
    1882

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    John C. Heenan of Troy
    1881

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    John Morrissey, His Life and Battles
    1881

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    Life and Battles of John L. Sullivan
    1883

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    Lives and Battles of Famous Black Pugilists
    1890

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    Lives of Tom Hyer, John C. Heenan, Yankee Sullivan and ...
    1888

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    Prize ring champions of England from 1719 to 1889
    1889

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    The Life and Battles of Jack Dempsey
    1889

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    The Life and Battles of James J. Corbett
    1892

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    The Life and Battles of Joe Collins
    1882

    Fox, Richard K. (pub)
    The Life and Battles of John C. Heenan
    1888

    Godfrey, Captain John
    A Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defence
    1747

    Haislet, Edwin L., et al. Boxing. "Naval Aviation Physical
    Training Manuals," later called "The V-5 Series." Annapolis:
    United States Naval Institute, 1943, 1950. (Two earlier
    books by Haislet are equally good.)

    Harding, William E.
    Champions of the American Prize Ring
    1881

    Harding, William E.
    John C. Heenan - His Life and Battles
    1881

    Harding, William E.
    Life and Battles of Joe Collins 1882

    Hearn, Jas. A.
    Reminiscences of a 19th Century Gladiator
    1892

    Henning, Fred
    Fights for the Championship, Vol. I - II
    1899

    Henning, Fred
    Some Recollections of the Prize Ring
    1888

    Hess, Joseph
    Out of Darkness into Light
    1888

    Hillebrand, L.
    Sparring
    1864

    Humphreys, Richard
    The Memoirs of John Scroggins
    1827

    Hyer, T.
    Prize Ring Heroes
    1885

    Innes, Nelse
    Boxing Records 1893
    1893

    Innes, Nelse
    Boxing Records 1894
    1894

    Innes, Nelse
    Boxing Records 1895
    1895

    Innes, Nelse
    Boxing Records 1896
    1896

    Innes, Nelse
    Boxing Records 1897
    1897

    Innes, Nelse
    Ring Records 1893
    1893

    Innes, Nelse
    Ring Records 1894
    1894

    Innes, Nelse
    Ring Records 1895
    1895

    James, Ed
    Manual of Sporting Rules
    1877

    James, Ed
    The Complete Book of Boxing and Wrestling
    1878

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of Jack Randall
    1880

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of John C. Heenan
    1879

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of John Morrisey
    1871

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of Sir Dan Donnelly
    1879

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of Tom Hyer
    1879

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of Yankee Sullivan
    1880

    James, Ed
    The Life and Battles of the champions of England
    1879

    Larwood, Jacob et al
    A History of Signboards
    1866

    Lemoine, Henry
    Modern Manhood
    1788

    Mace Jr., Jem
    Boxing
    1880

    Mace, Jem
    Boxing
    1889

    Maddick & Pottage
    The Shilling Illustrated Boxiana
    1863

    McCormick, John B.
    The Square Circle
    1897

    Mendoza, Daniel
    Memoirs of the Life of Daniel Mendoza
    1816

    Mendoza, Daniel
    The Art of Boxing
    1789

    Miles, Henry Downes
    Pugilistica, Vol. I - III
    1866

    Mingaud, Edward
    Life and Adventures of James Ward
    1853

    Mirror of Life (pub)
    The Life and Battles of J.J. Corbett
    1894

    Mitchell, E.B., et al. Fencing... Boxing... Wrestling ("The
    Badminton Library of Sports and Pastimes.") London:
    Longmans, Green and Co., 1889. (Mitchell wrote the boxing
    chapters of this book; the fencing and wrestling sections,
    and the bibliography of fencing, are also important.)

    Moore, Thomas
    Tom Crib's Memorial to Congress
    1819

    Naughton, W.W.
    The Fight of the Century
    1897

    How to Box: The Manly Art of Self-Defence Made Simple and Easy
    by N.D., 1882

    Newbold, George
    History of the Great International Contest Between Heenan...
    1860

    OPERATOR, AN
    The Fancy
    1826

    O'Brien, Philadelphia Jack and Bilik, Dr. Samuel E. Boxing.
    NY and London: Charles Scribeners' Sons, 1928.
    (Photographs of O'Brien's manual shows the order and
    simplicity of the Classic Style. O'Brien's own development
    thus gives some clues about how fighting arts evolve.)

    O'Rourke, Samuel
    The Art of Pugilism
    1837

    Oxberry, William
    Pancratia OR A History of Pugilism
    1812

    Parkyns, Sir Thomas
    The Inn-play OR Cornish Hugg Wrestler
    1727

    Price, Edmund E.
    Science of Self Defence
    1867

    Pugnus
    History of the Prize Ring
    1877

    PUPIL OF HUMPHREYS AND MENDOZA, A
    The Art of Manual Defence
    1789

    PUPIL OF MENDOSA AND HUMPHREY, A
    Boxing Made Easy
    1865

    Reynolds, J. Hamilton
    The Fancy
    1820

    Robinson, John Robert
    Old Q.: A Memoir of William Douglas
    1895

    Ross, Barney. Fundamentals of Boxing. "Little Technical
    Library." Chicago and NY: Ziff-Davis Publishing Co., 1942.

    Sampson, H. (PENDRAGON)
    Modern Boxing
    1879

    Sandow, Eugen
    Strength and How to Obtain It
    1897

    Sharples, William
    The Complete Art of Boxing
    1829

    Shaw, Edwin
    The Teacher of Sparring
    1886

    Shaw, Fred G. The Science of Self-Defence. London:
    The Author, 1919.

    Siler, George et al
    The "Fight of the Century"
    1897

    Boxing: A Manual Devoted to the Art of Self-Defence by James E. Sullivan, 1893

    Swift, Owen. The Hand-Book to Boxing. London:
    Nicholson, 1840. (American editions entitled Boxing
    without a master were in print into this century.)

    Walker, Donald, Defensive Exercises. London: Thomas
    Hurst, 1840. (Boxing, fighting, rough-and-tumble, and other
    fighting arts.)

    Whitehead, Paul
    The Gymnasiad or Boxing Match
    1744

    Whitehead, Paul
    The Gymnasiad or Boxing Match
    1744

    Wright, William (pub)
    Memoirs of Tom Sayers
    1858
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 9:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of the list above, some are technical manuals and others are autobiographies, biographies, etc. I would recommend joining the ClassicPugilism group I linked to earlier to ask about the best and most accessible sources.
  9. sasquatch989 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 9:09pm


     Style: S.H.I.T. MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WTF? I would love if some douche hit me in the head bare knuckle...With his broken hand I move in for some hooks and overhands. A boxing match is way different from a streetfight, even if both the guys are trying to throw nothing but fists, but a boxer knows how to slip, weave, parry, counter punch, and hit with a greater degree of accuracy, speed, and power. To top that, they also know how to take a punch or two. To say that boxing would not work in a streetfight is retarded. I would rather say that a boxer would proabably only need 15 seconds...unless the guy clinched up...then that boxer would need to know grappling as well. But for the standup portion, boxing would work fine, especially if the other guy has not trained in MT or boxing....and **** Karate or any of that other ****.
  10. NoMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2006 9:11pm


     Style: Boxing, Judo, BJJ, M.T.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jesus!!!! There's a fifty book limit per checkout, a month limit on interlibrary loans, and if I snort crank instead of sleeping, I think I can finish that list in about 4 and a half years. Thank god I didn't ask you for an unabridged listing. ;)
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