Posted On:7/04/2004 8:57pm
>9chambers, that's a very moronic statement.
No it's not. You're moronic for thinking it's moronic. Moron. :P
>Sounds like you're very uneducated about the sport.
Not true at all. It just sounds like I called some people weenies and you turned out to be one of them so you got upset.
>Dropping weight has nothing to do with not being
>able to compete, and my coaches never once
Name another reason for it then. Why would you cut weight to compete at a lower weight class when you could do just as well in your own weight class? What's the reason if it isn't to get an edge on the competition? If you could be State Champ in your own weight class then you wouldn't be cutting weight. You are cutting weight to get an advantage because you think you'll have a better chance at winning. It's kind of a wus out. Maybe everyone does it -- maybe it's smart -- heck, I had to do it to fill spots on the roster a few times -- still, it's saying you can't compete in your own weight. It's wussing out.
The only reasons for cutting weight is because you can't beat the guy in that position on your team. The weaker wrestler out of the two is told to try wrestling at a lower weight class. Either that or the coach is trying to fill vacancies on the roster so you won't have to forfeit a point. If you have a good coach who has recruited a good team then you don't need to do that. Unless, it's just a small school or something. Whatever. I still think that if you are good enough to compete in your own weight class, that makes you a better wrestler than someone who cuts weight.
>Find me a wrestler who competes at a high level
>who doesn't drop weight, and I'd be shocked.
Bruce Baumgartner. :)
Posted On:7/04/2004 9:14pm
Style: Judo & Sub Wrestling
First of all, Bruce Baumgartner is 6'2" tall, and wrestles in the 286lb. division, which is about 60 lbs. heavier than the next weight class down. I've stood next to Bruce and he is a HUGE man, so what would his motivation be to drop weight? You need a better example.
And the reason to drop weight IS to get an edge on the opposition. So if that's your idea of "wussing out", then you have a very skewed idea of what it means to compete, and wanting to win.
So you're saying if I'm coming off of football season, losing the 25 pounds I've put on during the summer is considered "wussing out"? What the hell do I need that weight for? Why shouldn't I cut down to be faster and stronger at a lower weight? Why should I let that extra weight affect my stamina? You honestly come off as someone who's only wrestling experience was from watching Vision Quest on cable.
"The only reasons for cutting weight is because you can't beat the guy in that position on your team."
I never once had to cut weight because I couldn't beat the guy in my position. I wrestled three different weight classes my senior year alone. I went where I wanted to go, and whereever the team needed me to go. Don't bring your own misguided experiences of not making varsity into this discussion.
"I still think that if you are good enough to compete in your own weight class, that makes you a better wrestler than someone who cuts weight. "
Well then you must certainly know something the entire amateur wrestling world does not.
And your arguments are still moronic.
Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that kickboxing is commonly known as fighting while grappling simply isn't. - Osiris
Posted On:7/05/2004 3:59am
>so what would [Bruce's] motivation be to drop weight?
All you said was to find a good wrestler who didn't have to cut weight. I found one. Mission accomplished. You said you'd be shocked so be shocked. Bruce may be huge but he beat guys much bigger than him. That's something you'll never be able to say because you cut weight to compete with smaller guys like a wus.
(Please don't take my insults to heart. I'm just being dramatic) :)
>a very skewed idea of what it means to compete
My idea is that if you want to be the best, you go up against the best. Having a winning record against guys you have a serious edge over just isn't as satisfying as it is when all other factors are the same. If you are dropping weight to face tougher opponents then that is admirable. I applaud you for that. It happens, and that is cool. Some guys want more of a challenge. If you are doing it to get an edge (the majority of the cases) then that is not so admirable. It shouldn't be part of the sport. It works, so all coaches do it since they want to win, but it's less than honorable. Maybe your idea of competition is to win at all costs but mine isn't. My idea of competition is to challenge yourself so you can develop your skills under harsher conditions. It's about getting better as an individual because you face the odds. Competition is not about exploiting little advantages to boost your record. Call me an idealist, but not a moron. That just isn't true. This is about ethics, not winning.
>You honestly come off as someone who's only wrestling
>experience was from watching Vision Quest on cable.
I've already explained that I wrestled on this very thread. I am going to assume that you can read, which means this is some sort of gay Internet trash talk. Trash talk for who, exactly? Not for me, because you know that I know I wrestled. It's for some imaginary audience, I guess. What audience? Do you think other people on this thread are going to go "Oh snap!" and applaud you? No. They could care less what names you call me. We are just pixels to them. They don't care. Relax. Knock it off. It's a waste of time. Get back to the actual conversation.
I know the practice of cutting weight is standard in wrestling. If I didn't then I would have made some shocked comment like Hannibal did. I didn't come in here all surprised. I came in here expressing my frustration that most coaches think exploiting a physical advantage is just as honorable as raising your level of skill to the point that you can compete with the toughest opponents possible. I still think it's wussing out and you aren't going to change my mind. You wouldn't change it if you were Dan Gable. Maybe it's good for the team's record. It's still not good for the development of the athlete. If you want your athletes to grow, have them wrestle heavier opponents, not lighter ones. The exception being if the lighter ones have a great deal more skill. Put your kids to the test. Don't teach them to wus out and see how far they can bend the rules to get an edge.
The practice of cutting weight to wrestle is counterproductive to the wrestler. It may help your team stats but it teaches the wrestler to lower their standards as an athlete. It's just barely cheating. The next thing you know the kid will be taking steroids or some other cheat to make up for the fact that he can't compete, because it's all about winning and not all about education and progress as an athlete.
Cutting weight takes away the whole purpose of having weight classes in the first place. It's supposed to put athletes together who have all physical things equal so they can see who has more skill. When you cut weight, all things aren't equal, so you'll never know who had more skill. You'll just know one guy had beefy arms and the other didn't. It totally warps the sport.
>I never once had to cut weight because I couldn't beat the
>guy in my position. I wrestled three different weight classes
>my senior year alone. I went where I wanted to go, and
>whereever the team needed me to go. Don't bring your
>own misguided experiences of not making varsity into
That wasn't my experience. It was the experience of all those guys on your team who couldn't compete with you because you dropped down to their weight class. My experience as a wrestler was positive and very fun. I liked wrestling in school a lot. I still wrestle.
>Well then you must certainly know something
>the entire amateur wrestling world does not.
Yea. It's that having a superb record doesn't make you the best wrestler. In some cases it just means you can down more slimfast and x-lax. Meanwhile, there are better wrestlers who lose because some dork cut weight in order to be more of a success. You didn't outwrestle them, you out muscled them. That isn't much of a victory and it doesn't do much for your education as a martial artist. It just teaches you to use your power instead of technique. When faced with a stronger guy, you'll lose because you didn't have to build superior skill as a wrestler. You were too busy relying on your physical advantage.
>And your arguments are still moronic.
My arguments make perfect sense from the perspective of someone who sees wrestling as something worth learning as a skill and not just some stats from your glory days. I'm almost 33 and I still wrestle from time to time. It isn't so I can boost my ego -- it's so I can learn new things and become more skilled at old things. It's about education, not winning. Because education matters when real combat comes along. The other guy isn't going to care what your high school stats were. He isn't going to ask how much you weigh.
Wrestling is a martial art, not just a sport. If you aren't in it to learn to be more skilled then you don't know the spirit of wrestling. You are just a dumb jock. Martial artists who want to learn what wrestling has to offer, they want to learn the technique. They want to challenge themselves. They don't want to win because they have a physical edge. That would defeat the purpose.
That's where I am coming from. Call me unrealistic and idealistic but don't call me a moron. If you do call me a moron anyway, I'm going to call you a buttface. .. I'll do it. ..
Last edited by 9chambers; 7/05/2004 4:08am at .
Posted On:7/05/2004 4:15am
I'm talking about cutting weight in the middle of the season so you can win more, not losing weight at the beggining of the season because you haven't been training yet. I know there are all sorts of reasons to cut weight. They aren't all bad. I just think that the practice of cutting weight to be more successful is kind of shady. I'm aware that most coaches would think I'm being unrealistic. I'm just saying. I think it's dumb, especially when people take it to such extremes.
Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy
Posted On:7/05/2004 5:57am
Style: Kyokushin and Judo.
Once again 9 chambers is correct.
Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
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