Tani Otoshi > All standing locks

[islington]

they call that a valley drop in wrestling, excellent sacrifice

no technique is an end all, if an arm lock is done right you can't get out because they will break your arm - they're just hard to do right because you have so little by which to control the rest of uke's body - that's why they work so much better on the ground, you can use your legs or body to pin them while you isolate that arm

so, if i were to do a technique that you couldn't counter by going to the ground it would be one of two things: 1. something quick that just snaps the joint before you fall, or 2. something that is pulling you off balance and onto the ground where it can be held as a submission - anything else is going to be transitory anyway

that said, simply dropping your level will get you out of a surprising number of standing techniques - dropping and taking advantage position is all the better

//

what does someone who is good at aikido have to say about this?

[Jekyll]

Genraly wristlocks are v. easy to counter if you catch them before they put them on, waiting till after their on is a bit like trying to slip a right cross after someones hit you.

In my experience locks to the right hand can be countered before they're put on cleanly by forming a fist to resist the technique pulling your hand back and a swift left hook.<g>

But then I never could understand aikido enough to make any of its techniques work....

[Pandinha]

Counter to Nikkyo Nage. have strong wrists and thick forearms. I've had Nikkyo on me, and literraly push and pull my partner all over the place.

[Freddy]

Originally posted by Jekyll
Genraly wristlocks are v. easy to counter if you catch them before they put them on, waiting till after their on is a bit like trying to slip a right cross after someones hit you.

In my experience locks to the right hand can be countered before they're put on cleanly by forming a fist to resist the technique pulling your hand back and a swift left hook.<g>

But then I never could understand aikido enough to make any of its techniques work....

Thats why those who know how to aply joint locks always strike first to stun their opponent before applying the lock or go into combination attacks.

A counter when someone forms a fist is to quickly switch from one joint lock to another (joint lock combination attacks or throws) or to crush the thumb and break it. etc etc

[Freddy]

Originally posted by Anthony
Counter to Nikkyo Nage. have strong wrists and thick forearms. I've had Nikkyo on me, and literraly push and pull my partner all over the place.

A counter to that is have even stronger hands/wrist etc. or stick with combination attacks.

[Freddy]

The truth of the matter is nearly all moves have counter moves and counter-moves to countering counter-moves etc.

[Spunky]

Just like applying submissions on the ground, standing joint manipulation absolutely requires proper positioning first to minimize the opponent's ability to recieve it. There is specific distancing and timing required to first have some control over the opponent's weight through his spine/hips, at which point the locks themselves are merely a point of leverage to maintain that (still very temporary, though in theory you can have someone immobilized completely while on his/her feet).

If you don't have this, you'd better move onto something else or hope you can snap it quickly enough that you don't get tossed in the exemplified manner... in which you can note by the way that the person performing tani otoshi is perfectly centered despite the joint lock being attempted on him.

[Greese]

IT depends on your angle. Waki gatame will make tani impossible (ikkyo) in the picture but you need the arm to be 90 degrees or greater.

[J-kid]

Its a fun body wt throw...

[Greese]

Originally posted by islington
they call that a valley drop in wrestling, excellent sacrifice

As it is called in Judo as well. :D