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  1. islington is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2004 5:43am


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    they call that a valley drop in wrestling, excellent sacrifice

    no technique is an end all, if an arm lock is done right you can't get out because they will break your arm - they're just hard to do right because you have so little by which to control the rest of uke's body - that's why they work so much better on the ground, you can use your legs or body to pin them while you isolate that arm

    so, if i were to do a technique that you couldn't counter by going to the ground it would be one of two things: 1. something quick that just snaps the joint before you fall, or 2. something that is pulling you off balance and onto the ground where it can be held as a submission - anything else is going to be transitory anyway

    that said, simply dropping your level will get you out of a surprising number of standing techniques - dropping and taking advantage position is all the better

    //

    what does someone who is good at aikido have to say about this?
  2. Jekyll is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 4:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Genraly wristlocks are v. easy to counter if you catch them before they put them on, waiting till after their on is a bit like trying to slip a right cross after someones hit you.

    In my experience locks to the right hand can be countered before they're put on cleanly by forming a fist to resist the technique pulling your hand back and a swift left hook.<g>

    But then I never could understand aikido enough to make any of its techniques work....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  3. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 4:59pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Counter to Nikkyo Nage. have strong wrists and thick forearms. I've had Nikkyo on me, and literraly push and pull my partner all over the place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  4. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 5:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Jekyll
    Genraly wristlocks are v. easy to counter if you catch them before they put them on, waiting till after their on is a bit like trying to slip a right cross after someones hit you.

    In my experience locks to the right hand can be countered before they're put on cleanly by forming a fist to resist the technique pulling your hand back and a swift left hook.<g>

    But then I never could understand aikido enough to make any of its techniques work....
    Thats why those who know how to aply joint locks always strike first to stun their opponent before applying the lock or go into combination attacks.

    A counter when someone forms a fist is to quickly switch from one joint lock to another (joint lock combination attacks or throws) or to crush the thumb and break it. etc etc
    Last edited by Freddy; 7/16/2004 5:24pm at .
  5. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 5:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Anthony
    Counter to Nikkyo Nage. have strong wrists and thick forearms. I've had Nikkyo on me, and literraly push and pull my partner all over the place.
    A counter to that is have even stronger hands/wrist etc. or stick with combination attacks.
  6. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 5:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The truth of the matter is nearly all moves have counter moves and counter-moves to countering counter-moves etc.
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  7. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 7:05pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just like applying submissions on the ground, standing joint manipulation absolutely requires proper positioning first to minimize the opponent's ability to recieve it. There is specific distancing and timing required to first have some control over the opponent's weight through his spine/hips, at which point the locks themselves are merely a point of leverage to maintain that (still very temporary, though in theory you can have someone immobilized completely while on his/her feet).

    If you don't have this, you'd better move onto something else or hope you can snap it quickly enough that you don't get tossed in the exemplified manner... in which you can note by the way that the person performing tani otoshi is perfectly centered despite the joint lock being attempted on him.
  8. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 7:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IT depends on your angle. Waki gatame will make tani impossible (ikkyo) in the picture but you need the arm to be 90 degrees or greater.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
  9. J-kid is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 7:12pm


     Style: MMA-Vale Tudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its a fun body wt throw...
    Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
    -Styles i train in-
    Judo
    Bjj
    Mtkickboxing
    Western boxing
    Wrestling
  10. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/16/2004 8:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by islington
    they call that a valley drop in wrestling, excellent sacrifice

    As it is called in Judo as well. :D
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
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