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  1. m4949 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 7:32am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hapkido history

    I recently got in an aurgument with someone regarding the history of hapkido. He claims that hapkido doesn't drive from japanese arts and that GM Gi learned it all from some monk.
    I disagreed.
    Anyone got any info to help me....or him.

    In my research I found this...

    http://www.completemartialarts.com/w...e/hanjaeji.htm

    The part I love is when it says GM Ji suddenly realized that Hapkido in Japanese translates to Aikido.
  2. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 8:21am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BAH!! I guess this is HKD's version of TKD's 2000 year old lineage. Here are some "sorta" facts. (I say sorta because there is no documentation to suppor it). GM Ji did study under a guy he called Taoist Lee. This is where he derived some of the kicks that he implemented into HKD. GM Ji was a black belt in yawara (HKD) however, I believe he was a 2nd generation student. GM Choi was not his direct instructor. GM Ji supposedly gave HKD its name (there is much controvery surrounding this) Outside of that the rest of that site's "history" makes for good comedy.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  3. m4949 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 8:28am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I should have just titled this threat "hey Miguksarma..." :)

    Anyway, I just found this http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html
    This page supports my argument that Hapkido is derived from JJJ.
  4. rmclain is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 9:00am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grandmaster Ji studied under Choi, but only for a few years (less than 10). He had already studied from someone he called, "Grandma." It has been a long time since I've spoken with Grandmaster Ji, so I've forgotten what he learned from her...meditation techniques I believe. He also studied with "Taoist Lee" for a short time.

    Grandmaster Ji never claimed to me anything but being from the teachings of Choi Yong Shul. He added some kicking techniques to his knowledge of Hapki Yu Kwon Sul and started his own school called, "Sung Moo Kwan" in 1955. The only thing he claimed was the invention of the "Hapkido" spinning wheel kick, which he claimed should only be thrown with the right foot for philosophical reasons.

    He later implemented meditation into his curriculum sometime in the early 80's, I believe. Sometime after he was jailed. He now teaches all of it in his style called, "Sin Moo Hapkido."

    I don't think Grandmaster Ji is responsible for making up false history or statements about the Hapkido lineage. Probably someone out there is making false history claims for their own ego and advancement.

    You could always contact Grandmaster Ji or Grandmaster Bong Soo Han for clarification on anything.

    R. McLain


    Last edited by rmclain; 6/22/2004 9:03am at .
  5. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 12:53pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by rmclain
    I don't think Grandmaster Ji is responsible for making up false history or statements about the Hapkido lineage. Probably someone out there is making false history claims for their own ego and advancement.

    You could always contact Grandmaster Ji or Grandmaster Bong Soo Han for clarification on anything.

    R. McLain
    First off I would like to apologize if it sounded like I was accusing GM Ji of making up history. My remarks were aimed at the person or people who put that site up. They are the ones that need to get their fact straight. Actually I have spoken with GM Ji a couple of times regarding the history of HKD. I have always found him to be a very humble person and a nice person. But he is a nasty person on the mat. :) Thank you for your clarifications Mst. McLain. Good to see you are still alive and kicking. :)
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  6. rmclain is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 1:15pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No appoligy necessary Jeremy, I understood what you meant. :)

    Gandmaster Ji is fun to train with. He trains hard and is not shy about inflicting pain and letting you know something works. I remember training with him in 1995 for the first time. I'd never had a 60+ Grandmaster let me practice hip throws on him before - throwing him. Was a great example for me when I get older.

    Hope everything is going well and you are training hard.

    R. McLain
  7. m4949 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 1:27pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is why Bullshido rules!

    I know this guy, who says he's a 2nd BB under master Ji. He came to my class to work out and we did some JJJ. He seemed a little out of place, not knowing many of the techniques.
    One the way home he was talking all about Maser Ji, and how it's beter than JJ. Whne I step in and give the history of Korean MA. The guy is Korean, so naturally this all just pissed him off. He finally relented on the history of TKD but would not relent HKD, saying that it's purely Korean.
    I did not really know enough to argue the point further at the time. Thanks for the input.

    The guy really speaks highly of GM Ji, and it's seems he has a solid reputation (no negative posts on this thread yet :) ) Is it easy to get a BB in HKD?

    More about this guy in another thread...maybe.
  8. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 3:41pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is easy to get a BB in things like Combat HKD. And yes there are some HKD McDojos out there as well. The average time, at least when I was doing it, was about 5-7 years. However, I have heard of the 2-3 year black belts as well.

    GM Ji is a nice person, but can be blunt. He scolded one HKD "Grandmaster" that he and his wife (who also claims to be a "grandmaster") were too fat for HKD and need to lose weight. It is one of those things that I wish I could have seen in person. I also remember him doing a cane demo once. I couldn't wait to see some really cool fancy technique. So when the big black belt attacker charged at him Ji, simply picked up the cane and let the attacker run right into the tip. I was rolling on the ground. Then the second round he stepped out of the way and whacked the poor bastard in the shins. It was priceless really. He did eventually pulll out the fancy throws with it.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
  9. Jenfucius is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2004 7:02pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    oh god, korean MA history. someone shoot me please
  10. Sei I is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2004 7:53am


     Style: KOVAS

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hope, nobody is shot or even beaten by Ji Han Jae with his cane... ;)

    IMHO, the truth is always somewhere in between:

    1. Choi really brought the system to Korea from Japan. It was Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu (however he pronounced that in Korean way as Yu-sool which is ju-jutsu in kanji). Moreover, he couldn't import anything else since he was an "acting director" of the Daito-ryu during the illness and after deceased Takeda Sokaku for 4-5 years till the legitimate successor came from the military, i.e. son of the founder, Takeda Tokimune. Thoroughly studying Daito-ryu history you will be able to see the "gap" between Sokaku is passing the leadership to and Tokimune is taking over... Being even lucky you'll see Choi's Japanese name as "temporary" leader - Yoshida Tatsujutsu. Being Korean, he had to pass the "throne" to the Takeda Jr.

    2. Choi is back to Korea but not really in MA business. Rather doing as a farmer and rising pigs until noticed accidentally by his very first Korean student Suh Bok Sub. The fame and popularity came later.

    3. Ji Han Jae came on the stage later as well. However, he was one of the "inner" students. And one of the most successful students I would say, doing a lot for spread of HKD.

    4. I would agree that Ji actually came to the name of hapkido, replacing any nicknames of the systems that Choi used (who doesn't care so much about politics, marketing, branding - he carried only about what works best). Ji did not invented the system however as others try to please "humble" Ji and what makes other HKD GMs, his fellows from the training with Choi, mad. Just think: What it is hard to come to the name HKD when you have your teacher telling you about the system AIKI-jujutsu and just pronouncing kanji in Korean, not Japanese way - HAPKI? The shift from Jutsu to Do was made in Japan even earlier, after Meiji in 1868 and continued up to 1960's (hence - another Takeda's student Ueshiba Morihei and his similar... Aikido...). So, we have hapki-do, omitting Daito-ryu just because of "copyright" to original in Japan... And, yes, kicks added... :)

    5. People for political reasons, personal issues and greed so split and systems so derive that now we have two mainstream Daito-ryu... lots of Aikido (not finished with Aikikai, Iwama, Tomiki, Ki, etc.) and lots of HKD leaded by various GMs. If you like Sin Moo and Ji Han Jae personally - it's fine to have such lineage: Takeda Sokaku > Choi Yong Sul > Ji Han Jae...

    Peace! :)
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