Posted On:6/16/2004 6:42pm
Style: Muay Thai & BJJ
Ronin is **** stirring. Come on now, you should know him better by now! :)
Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
"Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
Posted On:6/16/2004 7:21pm
Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Sorry, I've been away from the forums and I'm not really up on people's on-line personalities at the moment.
Posted On:6/17/2004 1:56am
This is going to be a semi-long post illustrating why *I THINK* GJJ is different and inferior to BJJ.
Okay, we all know that Rorion is a money-grubbing loser who bamboozle the rest of his family out of the market with his trademark. So what we have is Helio/Rorion & Royce teaching GJJ - the trademarked and authentic one of a kind 'REAL' brazilian jiu jitsu. As we all remember from the carefull marketing on Rorions part Helio 'created' GJJ and was undefeated blah blah blah. Well, we know that is bullshit. One of his own students beat him, and Carlson was forced to come after and whoop the guy. We also know that Kimura beat Helio. We also know that Helio didn't 'create' anything. He watched his brothers and trained JJ, modifying some of the techniques. He didn't create a damn thing. So at this point GJJ is on shaky ground. It was being sold and marketed in a deceptive manner.
BJJ on the other hand is the generic term that everyone is forced to use who is not authorized to teach the official 'GJJ'. You have a whole other lineage like Carlson who teaches basically the same stuff. It gets a little murky as the Gracie family descends and people train with different teachers.
But what exactly is the difference? I'll tell you the difference. GJJ IS INFERIOR TO BJJ. WHAT?!?!?!
Yes, thats right. INFERIOR! You want to know why? Because Helio/Rorion hide the art to people outside the family. Yes. Its the same old bullshit bullshido that happens in other arts. They teach the most basic **** and keep knowledge from their students. Now Im sure that 'someone' is going to come up and 'defend' the GJJ clan. Let me shut you down right from the start.
1) The torrence academy was notorious for hiding their stuff. My proof of this was the exodus of some of their students. For example, Marc Laimon and Ethan Milius bailed on them and went to the Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club to train. They were living testimonials to the BS that was going on. They said it themselves, they were actually being held back. He and Marc both got sick of the games Rorion would play at Torrence. Over the years I have met many like them. They didn't know what they were missing until they went elsewhere.
2) At BHJJC we had many students from GJJ Torrence who would come to train with us. Multi-stripe blues were STILL trying to pass the guard with one arm in and one arm out. Like fucking newbies they would get triangled over and over and over with no clue. HELLO YOU ARE BEING TAUGHT **** THAT SUCKS. Marc and Ethan both laughed at this sort of thing. Their 'technique' was so basic and lame that white belts were tapping out Torrence vets. It was people like Marc and Ethan who broke out of that archaic grappling to evolve into something greater. They experimented with the De La Riva guard, which was conveniently absent at Torrence. They explored leg locks which had previously been taboo. etc etc.
3) There are many many many instances where Rorion would chide his family for 'showing too much', for example when Renzo/Kukuk came out with their video series in the late 90's Rorion tripped out and said they were showing too much. Can you believe that ****? Showing too much? You can look at Rorions own tape series and see what lame crap they were trying to sell. The same dopey moves done in several variations. No depth or substance - and yes, even the one arm in and one arm out guard pass.
4) GJJ's success was built on Royce's success in the UFC. It was rhetorically repeated over and over that GJJ is the source and everything else was crap. You had to learn from them or you weren't learning the 'real' stuff. In the mean time, the 'other' stuff had begun to infiltrate the US and the GJJ myth was beginning to be dismantled. Carlson's guys were handling everyone. Royce even lost to Wallid. Suddenly the myth was shattered. It was possible that there was a better method of teaching, or other teachers who could be better?!?! The US became flooded with QUALITY teachers and their students began to dominate. Look at the Machado's for example.
5) The proof is in the pudding. As BJJ competitions began to flourish you saw the emergence of a new breed of fighter. Cross trained. Specialized. All kinds. But in the BJJ tournaments, the GJJ guys found themselves out of their element. They were losing badly. Teachers who were not afraid to show more started to develop quality competitors who schooled the GJJ boys. Even today, you find that they get owned when they try to compete. You won't see many GJJ reps at the podium. So you know what they did? They shrivelled up, and started their 'own' competitions. Open to THEIR students. Does that sound a lot like some other McDojo's of the past? They even began to change the rules because, *GASP*, people were beating them at their own game.
6) BJJ encourages cross training while GJJ are trying to remain purists. Only recently have they begun to break this mold and are far behind the BJJ guys who recognized the importance of crosstraining. Another good comparison would be Carlson's guys who began boxing to improve their vale tudo game. Nowadays the GJJ fighters are playing catch up. They tried to remain purists too long. Sound like McDojo closed mindedness to me. Case in point Genki v Royler. Pure GJJ v crosstrained BJJ type. There really isn't much of a comparison.
Even in the 'pure' GJJ grappling style they have not evolved. Other BJJ people are continuing to develop and evolve the art. They recognize the importance of adding wrestling and sambo and judo. For example - again I will mention Wallid v Royce. Modern day BJJ meets traditional GJJ. GJJ loses.
So what exactly am I saying? I am saying that GJJ and BJJ are not the same. The terms are not interchangeable. I am also saying that GJJ is inferior to BJJ. I recognize that this might provoke some knee jerk reactionaries that may feel challenged. I would liken this to many McDojo practictioners responses when confronted with reality. They become angry and refuse to accept what many have already realized. Now this is *MY* opinion, and like any opinion it is biased. It is probably not 100% accurate in every word and detail. But by and large I think the information I have provided should convince people that the reality is BJJ has evolved, and GJJ is trying to cling to its glory days as it basked in the public's ignorance. I urge you, if you disagree, to go see for yourself. Compare and try to make an objective decision on the subject. I think you will find that what I have said is true. BJJ > GJJ.
Last edited by Yrkoon9; 11/30/2005 11:53am at .
Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee
Posted On:6/17/2004 2:31am
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Posted On:6/17/2004 2:51am
Great Post. I am new to the politics of the Gracie family.
Fancy a milkshake?
Posted On:6/17/2004 3:05am
So which Gracie family members are teaching "better" jiu-jitsu?
Posted On:6/17/2004 3:08am
Thats a good question , and one that I would like ot know the Reasoniung behind , as well ... I mean , how can you tell the difference as a Consumer ?
Posted On:6/17/2004 3:29am
I pretty much agree with yrkoon9's post, I've met a few gjj practicioners that seemed a little behind the rest of the grappling community, even wallid said when he grappled royce it seemed that royce was behind the times so to speak with his techniques.
Posted On:6/17/2004 3:39am
Let me make a blanket statement to answer that question:
Just about everyone in BJJ is ahead of GJJ.
That being said, as with any rule of thumb there are exceptions. However, I have yet to meet any BJJ teacher who hides as much of their art as the GJJ clan does. That is not to say there are not those that do, but on the whole BJJ teachers/students are far more open and modern than GJJ'ers. I will end this by adding that GJJ is about making a buck, while BJJ is about producing quality students. BAM, I pull no punches.
Please read my full post on pg 5 if you are going to argue this points with me. Sniping at this post without understanding my reasons for saying this would be ignorant.
Whoops! I didn't see the second question that relates to BJJ/GJJ as a product for the consumer.
To answer that question I will give you an example. Lets say in GJJ you are learning the basic armbar. You will practice that over and over and over. Now I will always agree that repetition is good, but at a certain point variety for the consumer becomes important. In this case, a BJJ student would have learned much more in the time being spent by the GJJ student. They would have learned new and different positions for applying that armbar. They would have seen counters and combinations. They would have also been exposed to many drills of combinations and counters with that armbar that simulate real time situations.
But most important of all!!!! They would have been practicing those armbars in sparring. One of the glaring inadequacies of GJJ is the lack of serious sparring that their students get. Wheras you might get 2-3 5minute rounds at GJJ, you would get double at the average BJJ school. Time and time again I hear horror stories of students from Torrence who were woefully unprepared for the realities of grappling at other schools. They practiced that one armbar, and might be pretty good at it by now. But they are never in a position to use it because the other students from BJJ know counters, combinations, and most of all have more experience sparring in comparison to their counterparts who have equal amounts of training.
If I was to make an analogy GJJ is trying to feed you bread. Everyday bread bread bread. Expensive bread at that! Look at that pricing schedule and you will see. But at the BJJ school you are going to be getting bread also, in the form of a sandwich. Every day a different sandwich. Yep, it will have bread too. But most importantly the sandwich is dynamic, today may be turkey with cheese, tommorrow meatball, the next day something else. One day the GJJ students are going to go in the back of the kitchen and realize that the reason they are only eating bread is because Helio/Rorion are hoarding all the extra's for themselves.
I'll end this post with some props to some of the Gracies. Ralph, Renzo, and Carlson produce some phenominal students. They are certainly not the ONLY ones, but since they are easily recognizable and highly visible you can see for yourself and make a comparison. Take a Torrance blue belt and put him against a Ralph blue belt. There won't be a comparison. Ralph's boy will be laughing as he mops the floor.
Last edited by Yrkoon9; 6/17/2004 4:01am at .
Posted On:6/17/2004 3:51am
Hey my original school was a carlos gracie jr./draculino affiliate and was pretty ahead of its time as far as grappling (but not as far ahead of its time as my current school), though I still think there are more and more bjj schools in general that are falling into the trap of being stagnant and not allowing growth, it's all about the atmosphere the instructor/coach creates within the gym, I think that gyms that allow for more free exchange of ideas and more of a casual, yet physically intense, training environment will have a much better chance of adapting and growing then a school that has the attitude that whatever the instructor say/does is law and will always be that way, i.e. the passing the guard with one arm in and one arm out example yrkoon9 used in his article is a good example of this, most people can figure out on their own that this pass is extremely outdated and that there are many more effective variations of it out there that will not get you triangled.
Last edited by stoogejitsu; 6/17/2004 4:03am at .
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