[The Wastrel]

Sorry, but I didn't seem to get anyone's attention with my other thread title.
I am thinking of checking out a local JJJ school, can anyone offer any useful advice on what to look for when I go? I know the warning signs of the McDojo; I'm thinking specifically of stuff that JJJ'ers only could tell me. I guess one good sign is that they're not *claiming* to be BJJ.




Edited by - The Wastrel on December 12 2002 02:36:27

[FukFu]

What is “JJJ” and what do you want to get out of it?

[The Wastrel]

Well, three J's because I've seen it done here that way before. I thought it was useful to distinguish Japanese Jiujitsu from Brazilian. What do I want to get out of it? I don't know, if you know it, you tell me what to expect.

[FukFu]

What do I want to get out of it? I don't know

I’ll rephrase, why are you thinking of taking JJJ?

you tell me what to expect

There can be a big difference between schools. I can’t really tell you what to expect. Maybe if you ask some specific questions, I might be able to help.

[Kungfoolss]

Well, three J's because I've seen it done here that way before. I thought it was useful to distinguish Japanese Jiujitsu from Brazilian. What do I want to get out of it? I don't know, if you know it, you tell me what to expect.

The differences between Brazilian Jujutsu and Japanese Jujutsu

"Classical Japanese jujutsu and Brazilian jujutsu pretty much follow the same concepts and theories. I think traditional jujutsu was actually designed for training purposes in the use of hip throws, wrist locks and such. But the art is not designed for real self-defense situations. It is very superficial in its effectiveness. The concepts are perfect, but the practitioners don't train hard enough to get combat benefits. They have very soft drills and don't sweat much. I believe if they would train harder, they could improve.

There is definitely a Japanese influence in Brazilian jujutsu, but we add the Brazilian flavor because, in a country such as Brazil, there is more fighting and the people have an aggressive nature. So the techniques must be more usable in a real situation.

Martial arts such as wrestling, judo and some forms of jujutsu have ground techniques, but the instructors don't generally spend any time on ground fighting. Normally, in a traditional jujutsu class, once the combatants fall to the floor, one will apply a finishing hold immediately without getting any resistance from his training partner. In Brazilian jujutsu, however, when the combatants go to the floor, the fight is just beginning. Brazilian jujutsu practitioners have developed a better and unique system of the guard and mount positions. Other stylists may incorporate those positions into their systems, but they don't have the level of knowledge or the many different aspects to the positions that Brazilian jujutsu stylists have. The Brazilian system is much more complex.

Traditional and Brazilian jujutsu practitioners execute choking techniques in a similar manner. The theory and the movements are basically the same. But my father, Helio Gracie, developed a technique that puts much more leverage in the way to squeeze a choke. The sweeps done in traditional jujutsu involve 50 percent technique and 50 percent personal qualities. But in Brazilian jujutsu, the sweeps and chokes are always based on at least 75 percent technique. That increases the leverage and the potential of the movement itself. This method is based on the fact that my father was a very skinny man, so he incorporated a huge amount of leverage in every movement.

Traditional jujutsu throws are very difficult to apply in a self-defense situation. Brazilian jujutsu doesn't emphasize throws. Instead, practitioners turn their attention to the primary objective, which is getting the opponent to the ground. Punching, kicking and throwing are not exactly priorities for us. We tend to believe that it's good enough if you know how to block if somebody tries to hit you. We usually punch only if the opponent makes a mistake; then we put him down with a hand strike. But our approach to fighting is different than that used by the upright fighters." Rickson Gracie 1996

PS. I have to agree, grappling is impractical in the context of life and death altercations.

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start

[The Wastrel]

I'll try FukFu, but if you asked me what to look for in a Taekkyon school and I replied, "I don't know, ask some specific questions," would you really be able to? Keep in mind, I don't know ANYTHING about jujitsu except sort of very generally what it has to teach. ANYTHING you can tell me would be extremely helpful. As to the story of why I am thinking about it well...maybe I should give you my MA manifesto. I'll try bullets because I have been writing some really long posts lately.
---Grew up in a pretty rowdy and assertive family. I have two brothers and the three of us have always been very athletic and aggressive. We all fought fairly often.
---Around 18 I noticed that there was a Chinese martial arts school in my town. I had GREAT contempt for all the hi-yah shit going around (we didn't know to call it McDojo then) and I was intrigued because it wasn't TKD or Karate. None of that "build self-confidence crap. I joined up.
---Stayed there for about six months, enjoyed it sort of, but then the Shunshifu changed. Didn't like him too much at all, and I was having growing frustration about the way the Dashifu wanted to make his own system without teaching us the traditional forms from the systems he had learned (White Crane, Hung Gar, Choi Le Fut, both Mantis and a few others). They taught well though so I chose to go the school his son ran.
---Well, it was okay. Little different (floating foot versus sink and surge style they called it) some McDojo touches (kids classes, stupid mythologies), but not really important. But after awhile, my private instructor starts to get unreliable and some gangly teenager whose basics were all fucked up and who couldn't fight for shit has to fill in for my private lesson because he knows more of the "forms" than I do. Then one day I saw a "sword" class. I had been a foil fencer-after I saw this sword class, I was DONE.
---Joined the army, found I was still a pretty decent brawler. Got in a few scuffles, one with a boxer, did alright, but all that side guard stuff I had done was a real problem against the boxer. Did a little boxing myself when I was stationed in Arizona, but it wasn't too rigorous. Took up Taekkyon in Korea. Taekkyon is nothing like Taekwondo no matter what you might hear. It's takedowns, non-linear, square instead of side guard, leg traps, high/mid kicks but more low kicks, shin stomps and clinching (nothing like MT, though) and it has NO hyung or kata or whatever you want to call them, and it eschews Taekwondo style blocks, preferring evasion and MT or boxing type defenses. Taekkyon's not some ultimate martial art, but it is the wake-up call that a lot of Trad. East Asian stylists need, because it is strictly scored on head kicks and takedowns. Guess which works more often.
---When I came home I got to spar a lot with my younger brother, who went to CIF in Cali in his senior year, even though he started wrestling as a junior. Well, I regretted never having tried wrestling when I was in school.
---I want to be a well-rounded, no-shit fighter. That's it. I'm probably going to be going into a fairly dire career after I finish school. I think I have a good sense of what I need and of what works for me. Taekkyon has taught me about range control and aggression and about economy. It has a couple of techniques that are fantastic and some really singularly useful low kicks, but the takedowns are designed mostly for fighting high kickers (TKD vs Taekkyon can be pretty funny), not experienced wrestlers or grapplers. I need to fill this gap. I also want to have better hands, and will take up boxing for this. I'm 6' 175lbs, work-out 4-5 days a week, can run 5 miles in about 30 minutes, have VERY strong legs for my size, and have had little trouble out-grappling people with equivalent skill who were much larger and stronger than me. If I had my 'druthers, I'd get into wrestling, freestyle, Greco-Roman, whatever. Simply because I pine for the Western fighting arts, and I have a particular fondness for arts that encourage physical conditioning and frequent realistic practice.

[FukFu]

Hi Wastrel

You can expect to find a wide variety of JJJ clubs. Some will be like Kungfoolss described, others will be very different. Since you already have a MA background and know what you want, I suggest that you try out the different clubs in your area and stick with the one you like.

If you don’t like any of the clubs in your area, you might try BJJ or Judo. All three arts share the majority of their techniques in common, the emphasis is just different. BJJ and Judo are sports and JJJ has the same flaws as any traditional art, so none of them are the ideal street fighting art. But you seem like the kind of person who can take what he learns in the club and apply it to the street.

[SamHarber]

In answer to Kungfoolss, what a load of bollocks.
JJJ schools have all the variety found in any other style of MA. Some schools focus on groundwork, some focus more on the standing. Some schools are crap, some are great.
If its a good school, you get out what you put in. Your gross generalisations are just wrong on so many levels.

[Freddy]

judo isnt too bad if you find a good instructor. Jigoro Kano learn a few styles of jujitsu one of the styles he learnt specialized in throws. Some of these throws arnt (from my experience anyways) arnt found in BJJ. Like wise BJJ are specialist in ground fighting and other jujitsu styles arnt. I find aiki-jujitsu to be alot more practical and useful for multiple opponent situations. They have a good understanding of the importance of body/space placement with footwork and the movement of exellerated body mass. This isnt found in other jujitsu styles or not as much. But their ground fighting isnt too great nor are their foot throws. I would seriously look at the different jujitsu styles and would find strengths and weakneses from one style to another. My best bet would to take a few styles of jujitsu to see for yourself what I mean. You get more rounded that way too. Just when you thought all jujitsu systems were the same. Surprise!

PEACE!

[cowen70]

In answer to kfss and wastrel
(newbie hello everyone)

I have to disagree with kfss as bjj finds more comparison with judo in particular a style called kosen-do (sp?) where the majority of positions are very very similar.

What to look for in a jjj
a. How hard do they breakfall? May sound silly but if they won't breakfall really hard they don't throw really hard which makes their fighting skills suspect. Watch when they are training if no one really slams someone else its not a good sign.

b. Do they do real sparring throwing punches learning to move in for a takedown or a throw or lock. They may not do it often so ask as long as they do some so they know they can apply the techniques under pressure.

c. Shorinji something or other is well respected I'll get you the full name when I find it but I have trained in that style/association and it was good.

pete,