Posted On:6/03/2004 5:27pm
We are not a Mc Dojo, here is why. There are only 7 school. 6 in Korea, one in the states. I realize I am gong to get hashed in here. I'll take the jagged pill with a big glass of water please. No ice.
Professor of Chaos
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:30pm
Welcome to Bullshido. There are some that are close-minded, but if you stick to your guns and logically make your case, it will also get you plenty of respect. Not that the respect of a bunch of internet forum participants means much by itself, but you seem willing to stick it out so far. For that, I applaud you. The jagged pill only hurts the first time . . . :)
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:33pm
Style: Judo and BJJ
No, we think what you teach is bullshit. Do they not teach reading comprehension?
And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
Stand and Deliver!
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:36pm
Style: JKD Concepts, Kyokushin
Aw, geez....you don't even know the guy or what he can do.
Why be so quick to call bullshit?
"Onward we stagger, and if the tanks come, may God help the tanks." - Col. William O. Darby
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:37pm
Also, just FYI, the ribbing that you're taking for some of the marketing statements is only natural. This isn't a place where anyone's impressed by "Most effective" type claims. Bullshit gets called very quickly. We also have some folks here that were stationed in Korea while in the Military. You mention your own military experience, where and with whom did you serve?
Do you wear a skirt (I know it's a hakama, but here we call them skirts ;) ) for hapki practice or for weapons or both?
If you're genuinely trying to interact here, I believe that there are some Florida Throwdowns being planned. A lot of us take advantage of the Throwdowns to get together and try out our stuff in person. It's (at least in the 2.5 I've attended and the others I've read about) always been a friendly environment.
Actually, it can't be all that bad. They of course are in the business of marketing, and speak of things to get all walks of life. Many here have found classic bullshido trademarks, I've found a few myself, but the straight forward approach doesn't seem too bad.
"Our classes are very traditional and you can expect to learn self-defense as well as Korean language, culture, traditions, and customs. Classes are a great workout and only second to swimming in calories burned so you'll lose a lot of weight. Your muscles will be stronger than ever and yet remain flexible. Your mental awareness will increase dramatically and your self-discipline will be unmatched. Stress relief and lower high blood pressure. Increase stamina and breathe better.
They at least admit it's great excercise, which it is. Teaching of the culture... I find that common with many Korean MA's, especially HKD and TKD, they really insist upon it.
This here is very telling:
No pictures of Bruce Lee or self gratifying pictures of the masters adorning the walls. Just sparse walls with a few things there: Korean Flag, always present in Korean MA studios; American Flag, self explanatory; and some little blurb in Korean, hopefully it says nothing to hokey or corny.
They do have all their phone numbers including their Korean Headqaurters number, so they seem to be on the level and very organized, which can't be all that bad for schools such as this.
We hold fast to the original techniques of Hapkiyoosool. Hapkiyusul as it is spelled by some. We live in a modern world and the techniques have proven to adapt to every new and rising situation. All instructors adhere to a rigorous and strict set of rules under the Korean Government.
This last sentence kinds of bothers me. They talk of holding fast to old techniques, but understand the need for adapt to modern times. That's good. The rigorous rules under the Korean Government is what got me. As far as I knew, only TKD had 'official' rules under the Korean Government who were trying to turn it into an international sport, and get it into the Olympics as an official sport. is there a governing council within South Korea regarding the forms and testing for HKD? I've not heard of one, but my exposure is not as wide as some regarding HKD.
This next piece from the US Site is interesting:
Please do not confuse the International Hapkido Federation with any other organization with the same name. Our organization is one of only three Hapkido organizations recognized by the Korean government. We are NOT affiliated with ANY other US organization of the same name.
This denotes they don't want to be lumped in with potential bullshido organizations and want to create a name for themselves. At least they were kind enough to point this out.
One thing that always bugged me about McDojo's were the adherance that you buy their uniforms and patches directly from them. I've seen a wide range of prices and these don't seem all that bad. It's true you will need uniforms and equipment and it's better to buy authorized practice weapons than to bring in a cut off mop handle, my question to this would be: Do they allow potential students to bring their own equipment if it fits the standards of the class? When ya get down to it, a gi is a gi, unless you want it to be patterned after an American Flag with an Eagle flying across the back and tassles on your belt. Is it necessary to buy the equipment from the Studio or are you allowed to wear gi's from previous MA schools (removal of other school identifying patches not withstanding of course)?
The Instructors claim direct lineage to Choi, Yong-Sol, but how many people have done that before? I'm not sure what kind of credentials are necessary for this claim, but they seem to be proud of the fact and wish to continue the art as he taught it, so that seems to be good. I'm not saying the didn't, but burden of proof always lies on the claimant. A graph on a webpage is not much, anyone with HTML coding could accomplish that lineage.
They do offer proof of training of military personnel in pictures and such, I think the addition of a Unit Number would have been nice and well, needed, for such a claim, otherwise it's a bunch of Army guys that pitched in some cash together to do some training. A good thing in it's own right, as they are Military personnel, but it's not an official instruction for the Military. Are there any documents for this? Most schools get 'gratitude letters' for training units and such, it sort of validates the claim on both sides.
The CIA link is funny, it's a direct link to the CIA HR page. It doesn't do much but insinuate a connection to the CIA. Kind of shady marketing strategy in truth.
Then I find this:
Asian countries keep highly regulated and maintaned records on all qualified instructors, other cultures DO NOT do this to our knowledge. We are told this is one reason why so many martial arts schools outside Asia do not offer high quality instruction. It is due to the abscence of regulation among martial arts instructors.
I would point out that most Chinese Martial Arts are a complete jumbled mess with very few with direct lineage and proof of such. Rading these boards enough is proof positive about this. If this is supposed to allude to Korean Martial Arts, then what about TKD pre-50's? It was a mess too, with much bickering and infighting trying to get a form accepted as the only true form, etc. That's rather misleading.
Havign never lived in Korea, nor know of it's MA Organizations, I can't make many claims to the following:
To teach Hapkido in Korea you must meet strict requirements under the Korean Government laws for Martial Arts Instructors which are: 5 Dan qualified instructor, certified in chiropractic, sports massage,and acupressure or acupuncture.
My question to this is what was the precursors for instruction in the 1800's? Sports Massage was not around and Chiropractic was frowned upon deeply by any medical professions, akin more to a snake oil salesman than a doctor. Perhaps throughout the years, these requirements were placed, but why the strict guidelines for all these including a 5th Dan? Could we get an official explanation of 'certified'? Does that mean taking a 3 day seminar and getting a pre-printed piece of paper, or are we talking about a degree in that field? I'm certified for many things, but that doesn't mean I tout them as any real learning, ya know what I mean? There is a big difference between being certified and having a certificate, if that makes sense.
Coming to Bullshido.com was a brave move for the school, that's seriously ballsy and they're putting their good name on the line here. All in all, I would say it's a good school for learning HKD and the culture behind it as long as they don't emphasize on the culture and still claim to be self defense. McDojo's are rampant in America and many TKD schools trick people into joining them thinking they'll be the next Bruce Lee when really, they're learning a sport, not self defense.
Is there any claims to the contrary to help the members of Bullshido understand this is not a McDojo?
Last edited by joen00b; 6/03/2004 5:39pm at .
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:48pm
Style: jits with hits
Here is the problem. Your school may be ok. It may churn out incredible fighters. But your website is overflowing with complete bullshit. If you come on here, post a link to your website, and then leave, that's all we've got to go on.
If you want to convince us that you're not a McDojo, explain your training practices and show up at a McThrowdown. Then change your website.
Also: $99? For ONE CLASS?!
"I'm offering straight punch, kick while downed to the ribs or head, and of course- the german suplex...which is one suplex quickly followed by another." - Guerilla Fists
Matt Thornton explains "aliveness": http://www.bullshido.com/videos/sbg2.wmv
West Wind Karate / West Wind Bok Fu / West Wind Kung Fu thread
West Wind Karate / West Wind Bok Fu / West Wind Kung Fu archive thread
(experiment to see if I can boost the thread's Google rank)
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:51pm
Regarding the McThrowdown, the poster already let everyone know they have an open door policy towards anyone and everyone. They seem pretty up front to me, and they're not flowering up their posts with mish mash or making wild claims (though the marketing angle of the webpage does stretch things a bit). Hey, they're businessmen with a business to run, they can market it any way they want, and with an open door policy, it seems very friendly. Perhaps befriending them to hold a McThrowdown or something of that nature, many students here on these boards talk to their instructors for this very reason.
It seems since they came to Bullshido (hopefully with the knowledge of what it's about), perhaps someone can reach out for the Olive Branch and give a more comprehensive assessment of the school.
Posted On:6/03/2004 5:59pm
They make those wild ass claims on thier site.
Posted On:6/03/2004 6:07pm
That's exactly what I said: They're pretty demure here, but their marketing is pretty sketchy. They show pictures of what appears to be uniformed GI's and claim to train the military, but they offer no proof aside from that. I could get a bunch of Army buddies together, put on a silk gi with my hair in a pony tail, strike some cool poses and say I trained the military as well.
Hell, if you want to get down to it, I excel in training drunk mouthy people. I give them one on one demonstrations at the bar I bounce every weekend.
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