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  1. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 7:04pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The evils of the PRC -(attn: Samuel Browning)

    I've started this thread in response to the bxer rebellion thread that got derailed by name calling and major flaming on page 3'ish. Freddy made a new thread in the off topic so the flaming could continue. I thought maybe it would be nice to start a thread in history so that the intelligent discussin would have a chance as well.

    I probably come off as some kind of weird communist sypathizer because of how often I tend to be correcting information in their favor. I AM NOT. But the cold war has ingrained such a deep seated hatred of anything communist that I believe most people's opinions have become slanted so incredibly far that an honest appraisal of their crimes now sounds like praise and admiration.

    I've mentioned Samuel Browning in the title because he seemed like the only one so far who maybe had anything academically credible and regardless of the content, to whatever degree it shows off the uglier side of the PRC, if it is documented, I'd like to hear it. Kind of historical anti-Bullshido.

    There are a number of claims that get thrown around when people talk about China which tend to get just taken for granted as the truth but I have yet to stumble upon them in any of my college textbooks on China or any source that didn't contain a general anti-commie rant. Examples include but are not limited to:

    1. Mass Killings and other atrocities.
    2. Murder of Falun Gong members.
    3. Mainland Chinese are only educated in propoganda and are brainwashed into believing a whitewashed version of their own history.
    4. They value male children so much that they often abandon, or even outright kill their female children.
    5. etc.

    There are elements of truth to many of the accusations laid against China but generally they are then piled up with so much exaggeration and so little context that all that's left is a weird maniacal cartoon of what is an extremely complicated and many layered picture. So I would like to see a few things:

    1. Actual documentation or at least named sources of information on these things. Approximate fugures, dates, etc.

    2. Anything that "everybody educated knows" presented as such. If you "just know" then put it out there.

    3. CONTEXT. Many ugly facts need to be presented in context to be understood. An out of context fact can be more misleading than an outright lie and the misrepresentation is more difficult to correct.

    My goal here is to separate the hearsay from the history. What would be especially productive would be a side by side comparison of any of the more horrible accusations and what actually happened.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

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    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  2. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 8:48pm

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    Re: The evils of the PRC -(attn: Samuel Browning)

    Originally posted by Omar
    I've started this thread in response to the bxer rebellion thread that got derailed by name calling and major flaming on page 3'ish. Freddy made a new thread in the off topic so the flaming could continue. I thought maybe it would be nice to start a thread in history so that the intelligent discussin would have a chance as well.

    Omar I'm tire of your accusations and innuedos (and I was all but nice to you when I first posted). I made a seperate thread because it was no longer dealing with Samuel's topic (as explained by me). This section is about "Martial Art History" so it didnt have any relevenace here. It was you who brought up Marx and such.


    Originally posted by Omar
    I had nO IdeA there was going to be so much text.

    I read about 2/3 of page one and then quite because . . .hey, I majored in Chinese and have read most all that stuff before. Only one criticism. It is interesting you included some excerpts of Mao's writings but I think it is misinformed to put so many discalaimers on it. He's a compicate character and perhaps an evil bastard in his own way but "Marxist fetish" I think is horribly inappropriate. From what I can tell, the primary fascination with communism was the amazing speed with which Lenin took over Russia. I think Mao was fucking brilliant and had a perfect grasp of the psychology of his own people. China was obsessed with class more than Marx even before Marxism was introduced.

    I'm not trying to say he was a great guy or anything but I always try to put him in a historical context. The western imperialism was real and China WAS "the sick man of Asia". He's a weird character and I'm still trying to make sense of him. His writings are a bit overliterary for my Chinese ability so I'v started looking at Deng Xiao Ping's stuff instead. He was the Jefferson to Mao's Washington. Mao was the big charismatic leader while Deng seems to have done most of the work of figuring out how to actually govern. But both were needed.

    Sorry to sidetrack. Just got me thinking.
    Last edited by Freddy; 6/02/2004 8:54pm at .
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  3. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 10:45pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Omar
    You can acuse Mao of being a lot of bad things but and idot is pretty hard to justify. I can't speak for Stalin as I haven't studied him or Russian history. If nothing else Mao was at least a military genius.


    Stop kidding, please. Mao was a skilled politician. There is simply nothing to which you can append the label "military genius". This is coming from someone who thinks MacArthur was a complete disaster.

    It's easy to write off the bad guys as idots or stupid but not very accurate. The was for power in China in the 20th century was pretty amazing and a lot of big players were competing, including the US, Germany, Russia, France, Japan and the other political parties within China at the time. Many of those had foreign backing. Mao was smart enough to play the spin doctor game before we had the word in our political vocabulary. He was also smart enough to wage a successfull guerilla war against his better funded and better supplied opponenets.
    First of all, it was Mao's struggle to lose...alone. The Nationalists had repeatedly done themselves in by dividing China in the face of the Japanese invasion. They lost credibility with an enormous number of Chinese because of this.

    His essays display a keen awareness of global politics and he even predicted that America was the next big power to deal with and has commented in certain esssays I have seen that it is a shame he was forced by his alliance with Russia to be at odds with a country he would rather have had as an ally.
    This is frankly shocking. His essays? I have read some of these myself. They are a complete vacuum of thought. From his earliest letters as a rural agitator, to the ghost-written pieces of his later years.

    Also, what's this about preferring to be America's ally? Tell me why the Sino-Soviet split occurred then? You make no sense.

    Basically the big things people hold against him are the cultural revolution and the long march.


    Are you kidding? How about the Great Leap Forward? The purging of Marshal Deng? The political attacks on Liu Shaoqi? Kee-rist.

    The cultural revolution gets very mixed opinion from the Chinese her I have talked to. Most are basically ashamed of it but still much less ashamed of the cultural revolution than they are of their domination by the foreign powers, especially Japan. So it is often viewed as "bitter medicine".


    That's because most of them probably came of age during the CR, were active participants in it, and thusly implicated, have reconstructed interpretations in order to preserve their own consciences. The CR was a monstrosity in which Chinese and particularly Chinese youth were manipulated into being the political pawns of Mao and the Gang of Four. Stop the apologia. Please. This is misguided.

    The long march can only be viewed as a major failure but not really as spitefull or ill willed. We have had our own great depression and Ireland has had it's famines. We all **** up.

    Painting cartoons of people is much easier than producing an honest portrait.
    What are you talking about? The Long March was the trek the communists took to the Jiangxi Soviet after one of the Nationalist backstabbings.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 10:59pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Omar
    Still sounds more like a monumental policy fuckup than the doing of some kind of evil dictator.


    Do you even know what the Lushan conference was? Marhsal Peng Dehuai and the poem of criticism? How can you accuse other people of academic ignorance when you say this?

    Economically oriented? The only economy I can see those players into protecting was their own. It's a problem China still has today. Lazy fuckers only interested in their own self interest. The government whackis who are on the up and up here are way to few. I often praise them on international affairs but domestically . . . I think Mao had it right. Sometimes you need a kick in the ass.


    And follow with this?

    And there are different areas of intellegence. Mao obviously had his head up his ass economically but I would still keep going back to the larger picture. ie China's crumbling polical clout and the eventual consequences of that sort of thing. Eventually what happened was Deng Xiao Ping started creating more intellegent policy and things improved dramatically. As backwards as China is today, it's still growing at a phenomenal rate.


    Mao purged Deng TWICE for opposing his economic plans and pursuing what we would call more market-style liberalizations. How can you praise Mao by referencing Deng? Mao was forced to reform Deng only after the death of Zhou Enlai and the subsequent "Little Bottle" demonstrations.

    You majored in Chinese? Where? The fucking moon?

    Give me some more of those examples of how horrible he was. I mentioned these 2 already. I could pile up an emourmous list of items in his favor to put on the balance sheet against these 2 minuses. Even the cultural revolution wasn't pure evil. Things like footbinding went out the window with it as well. Gender equality was introcuced by Mao and the literacy rate went waay up. I got to go to work now but I wouldn't mind getting a more honest picture out there. I recieved the standard cold war era education about the evils of communism and that "Bad bad man Mao Zi Don" as well.


    Approximately 30 million people were killed as a direct consequence of the Great Leap Forward, and economic policy package that was resisted by many of his top advisors. That resistance earned some of them trips to prison camps when they tried to awaken Mao to the problem of mass starvation. Later, he would incite violent rebellion AGAINST THE PRC ITSELF in order to attack his foes.

    But comparing him to Lenin is absurd. Nobody here has done it but I have grown up hearing his name thrown around along with Hitler, Mussolini and any other nasty cult of personality guy you can think of. Where are the mass graves? Where is the wholesale extermination of minority groups? Where is the horrible ideology? All that's been presented are some fucked up economic policies.


    You're right. Lenin's democide is minute in comparison to Mao's. And a point of order, nobody here that I can see is comparing him with other members of the Doctor Evil cast of characters. They are in fact attempting to temper your extremely misinformed hero worship.

    We've had our share. So have plenty of other countries with well meaning non-communist leaders at the helm. How fucked up was pre-war Germany? How many "democratic" south or central american countries have had to deal with super inflation, major depressions and mass poverty as a result of poor economic choices?
    Externally determined. The fact is, no one but Stalin can exceed Mao Zedong for sheer democidal body counts. That's a real achiever.
    Last edited by The Wastrel; 6/02/2004 11:03pm at .
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  5. Jenfucius is offline

    Shogun of Long Island

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 11:02pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    omar, shut up you pinko.

    you've just been WASTOWNED
  6. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 11:03pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 11:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jesus, if you know anything about Chinese history and politics why don't we talk about Kang You Wei?

    Don't know that name, eh? How about Lu Xun? Or even easier, why not idolize someone like Zhou Enlai or Deng Xiaoping?
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  8. Jenfucius is offline

    Shogun of Long Island

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 11:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i found this picture of omar, i think it explains a lot:

  9. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 11:09pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just want to point out that Omar is excusing the worst starvations in history as an economic policy blunder by a "genius".

    Where was the genius when his people were telling him that his policies were a disaster? Oh that's right. The genius was actually somewhere else...like...NOT MAO'S HEAD.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  10. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2004 11:09pm

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will rejoin this argument once I load the appropriate historical sources this weekend.
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