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  1. A.D.D is offline
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    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 9:52am

    supporting member
     Style: Fish Oil

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...ight=west+wind

    This is a pretty good read about West Wind.
  2. BigDickRich is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 2:43pm


     Style: Bok Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    not McDojo

    Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff.

    If all of these places are McDojos and Bullshido, then where and what is not? There are a million and one systems out there with their own brand of B.S. and we're the best mentalities. Is it wrong for them to make money or want to make more? Because I want to make an assload of cash and do nothing for it, too.

    And aren't all of these schools based on traditions of students having unquestioned loyalty and servitude to their master? Isn't that part of the experience? Or is that one of the Americanized system ideals where I am equal with my teacher and can talk **** at will and be disrepectful and expect to be respected at the same time?

    I came here to be enlightened. So, start enlightening.
  3. bunyip is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 3:47pm

    hall of fame
     Style: jits with hits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi, BigDickRich! (I feel stupid just writing that.) I saw your post in the Throwdown thread. It would be awesome if you attended so we could chat and train together! In fact, if you'd like to meet up for lunch sometime and correct my misconceptions about WW, I'd be up for that, too. Just send me a private message. I really did try to go in with an open mind, but like you said, perhaps the intro classes were just totally over the top and didn't reflect your school's real philosophy.

    I'll try to address your questions now.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDickRich
    Is it wrong for them to make money or want to make more?
    Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Everyone draws their own moral line in the sand. Is it wrong to con senior citizens out of their life savings? Is it wrong to fool your students into believing they possess the skills to protect their own life? You may say these are totally different situations, but what about the girl who ends up raped after wasting years training eye gouges and groin strikes instead of brazilian jiu jitsu? What about the man who ends up beaten to a pulp because his unrealistic assessment of his self defense abilities?

    Most people don't like con men in the first place, but those teaching bullshido aren't just stealing money, they're endangering people's lives.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigDickRich
    And aren't all of these schools based on traditions of students having unquestioned loyalty and servitude to their master? Isn't that part of the experience? Or is that one of the Americanized system ideals where I am equal with my teacher and can talk **** at will and be disrepectful and expect to be respected at the same time?
    I've never been in a situation, whether in academics, sports, or martial arts, where I was expected not to question things. An unwillingness to address questions should be a huge red flag for your bullshit detector. Asking questions and considering the answers is how I know I'm not wasting my time with crap.

    The problem is that West Wind and many other "traditional" schools confuse "respect" with "unquestioning obedience". I have a huge amount of respect for my professors at college and for my martial arts instructors. All of them have put in years of practice to learn very difficult skills.

    However, my respect for them doesn't prevent me from asking questions about what they're teaching me. Even Nobel Laureates and black belts make mistakes from time to time. Calling them on it isn't disrespect, it's an enthusiasm for learning.
    "I'm offering straight punch, kick while downed to the ribs or head, and of course- the german suplex...which is one suplex quickly followed by another." - Guerilla Fists

    Matt Thornton explains "aliveness": http://www.bullshido.com/videos/sbg2.wmv

    West Wind Karate / West Wind Bok Fu / West Wind Kung Fu thread
    West Wind Karate / West Wind Bok Fu / West Wind Kung Fu archive thread
    (experiment to see if I can boost the thread's Google rank)

  4. BigDickRich is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 4:09pm


     Style: Bok Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree. There are tons of parallells with con men. I actually get the feeling that I get when I look at new cars. But usually I just tell the cars salesman to shut up and I'll call him when I want a test drive. I've been there a while now. I can talk considerable **** about the place. But, like I said in the other posts, it is what it is and overall it's been a positive experience.

    As far as unquestioned loyalty, it's a double edged sword. I was in the military. I know bullshit when I hear it. But sometimes you deal with it to get what you want.

    I was just trying to get an idea of what everyone is talking **** about. Is it the system being taught that is weak, the way it is taught ot the ethics of the school? It seems everything I'm looking at there is a cover for BJJ.

    I love BJJ and am thinking about exploring it further. I've also thought about the usefulness of what I've learned at West Wind. I figured it might be useful if there were more sparring type applications going on, but it's usually fighting against air. And from experience, once you're fighting, that crap is ugly to watch. I'm not even close to being in shape.

    As for my nickname, that's what my friends call me. Sometime they just say BD.
  5. bunyip is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 4:40pm

    hall of fame
     Style: jits with hits

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I use BJJ in my examples because it's my primary style. A lot of people say that the Bullshido forums are full of BJJ-nutriders or MMA-fanboys, but they're missing the point. Plenty of people (including most of the admins here) train in traditional martial arts. The point of this site is that it's not what style you train that matters, it's the WAY you train it. Correct training (aka "alive" training, vs. "dead" patterns like kata) must include training against resisting opponents. Matt Thornton explains aliveness very well in this video clip:

    http://www.jkd-kbh.dk/sbg2.wmv

    From what I've been told of West Wind by multiple students, most students do little or no alive training. The techniques I was shown would never work against a resistant opponent. Alive training would quickly make this clear, and instructors would stop teaching the techniques. This is one reason why alive training and sparring are so important - they reinforce what works and force you to discard what doesn't.

    So we are left with a gym teaching ineffective and unrealistic techniques. What makes West Wind so galling is that they charge hundreds of dollars a month for this. $300 a month for private instruction is not necessarily a ripoff. $300 a month for private lessons from Carlos Machado would be a steal. But what he teaches works, and you know it works because you roll every lesson. At West Wind, if you don't spar for the first few years, why would you have any confidence that what you're learning is worth the price?
    Last edited by bunyip; 7/26/2005 4:42pm at .
    "I'm offering straight punch, kick while downed to the ribs or head, and of course- the german suplex...which is one suplex quickly followed by another." - Guerilla Fists

    Matt Thornton explains "aliveness": http://www.bullshido.com/videos/sbg2.wmv

    West Wind Karate / West Wind Bok Fu / West Wind Kung Fu thread
    West Wind Karate / West Wind Bok Fu / West Wind Kung Fu archive thread
    (experiment to see if I can boost the thread's Google rank)

  6. alittlebird is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 8:03pm


     Style: Judo, a tiny bit of bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BD - have a read through this, I've never trained at this gym but their philosophy is pretty much dead on IMO

    http://www.straightblastgym.com/freedom.htm

    So theres 2 issues, the con and cult like business model, and the non-alive 'self defense' training. One of the biggest red flags that there is something wrong with your trianing, is when free sparring between experienced students looks little like the bulk of the training you do.
  7. BigDickRich is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 8:41pm


     Style: Bok Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    to expand on my comment about following you teacher and what not...

    I am fully for questioning things. Especially flawed thinking. Sometimes my teachers say some idotic stuff. I have to shrug it off. Then I hear the assistant instructors taking it to heart and spouting it off at the next student they teach. What happens when that student gets it wrong and tells someone else? We know that it will turn to crap. I would like to think that I am getting a return on my investment. In many ways I am. I don't smake anymore, I am in much better shape and I feel better about myself and life in general.

    I find the cult comparisons a little disturbing though. I wonder when I'll get some new Nikes and wait for the mother ship.

    Got anymore of those videos? I want to show them that ****. Maybe with your help I can make a better school instead of just quitting and letting every other schmo get sucked in.
    Last edited by BigDickRich; 7/26/2005 8:51pm at .
  8. beka is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 9:39pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ and then some

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dear BigDickRich-

    I, like Bunyip, would love to see you at the throwdown and even talk to you a bit about West Wind. As is my understanding, you can't send or recieve private messages until you get a few more posts, so please either hurry up and post more so you can write to me on bullshido, or send me an email at farouke53@hotmail.com.

    I know there are a lot of reasons to *not* go to West Wind, and I would love to talk it through with you, hopefully face to face sometime. If not, private messages or emails will work fine. I have yet to hear of any redeeming qualities that West Wind has, so I hope you might let me in on what *is* good about the place.
  9. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 11:47pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip
    $300 a month for private lessons from Carlos Machado would be a steal. But what he teaches works, and you know it works because you roll every lesson.
    *in my best Brazilian accent* Take it easy my friend.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  10. FingerorMoon? is offline

    The man they call FoM

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 11:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    **** that, I wouldn't pay 300 per month for anything.
    Maybe if Rickson, Frank, Bas and Randy got together...
    The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
    - Pizdoff
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