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  1. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2002 4:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only good reason to study any M.A. is very simple - you find the teacher worthy and believe he has knowledge you would love to learn from him. Hence you believe you will enjoy training in it, and feel enriched, and better because of it.

    This is a simple fact which remains the same for any M.A. be it TKD, Wing-Chun, B.J.J., a Koryu style (old style of J.J.J), Karate, Aikido, Muy-tai, Kapoera or wrestling.
  2. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/08/2002 5:13pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Amir makes a good point. People who make demands for "street" practicality from Capoeira (as well as those who claim it) are missing the point. That was never part of it. Isn't that kind of a Western import, the idea that it has to "work"? That's why they are called "arts", right? Because they dont. A lot of these arts are historo-cultural rituals, and that's about all. The five families of Southern Chinese arts are a perfect example. They're all wrapped up in the development of and membership in secret societies, anti-Qing factions etc. Apologists for TKD and Capoeira etc. don't really need to bother. Wing Chun and Boxing, Wrestling and Judo would ALL have to change quite a bit if the intention was only to be as effective as possible. If that is truly the goal, then they would all look the same. But that was NEVER the point, and even when people thought it was, they were wrapped up in tradition and superstitions that still enforced certain norms.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  3. tedhogan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/09/2002 9:07pm


     Style: HapKiDo, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that it is more the teacher than the art. I do believe that some arts are much more effective at certain things, but a lot comes down to the environment and teacher.

    Like, for instance, this guy...



    lol - is it just me or does anyone else see a slight Steven Segal resemblence????!

    BTW - I once went to a local HKD school where the Master (whom I do respect, but fear he has fallen into a McBusiness Trap) showed me a recruiting video of one of the Masters pulling a jeep with a metal chain attached to his arm via a pin shoved in just below his elbow. While I was extremely tempted by the practicality of such a self defense move, I had to take my leave and head to another school where they did more lowely things like spar and hit bags. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 7:20am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    > each technique actually WORKS, and you are able to trade blows with the best of them.

    These things are depended on the practioner.

    Techniques don't perform themselves.

    MANY MT techniques are not used in competition

    And don't think just because you take MT you can trade blows with the best of them....You're like to get knocked out! :D

    Nil is right MT's strenght lies in it conditioning. What I find funny is all the pple running around saying they do MT but when it comes to a fight you know they didn't do squat but watch and try to copy someone.


    >hat's why they are called "arts", right? Because they dont

    Nope the term ART in MA means SKILL not Aesthics.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 7:24am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again Asia, read my post. I didn't say they didn't work, I said they didn't have to.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  6. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 7:36am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wartrel,

    I am not arguing with you. I am clarifing what the term ART means.

    Many pple think MA means that some Aesthic fancy flower way to beat pple up. That is not the case. MA simply is a term that means "Skills pretaining to Combat/War" thats it.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 8:09am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that could be argued simply on the basis of what we can see. It isn't clear how everything under Capoeira or Pencak Silat for example "pertains to combat/war" I think usage indicates that martial art was created to describe Asian imports, am I incorrect? If that is your personal definition, then I am inclined to accept it from another soldier. On an earlier thread I argued that CAS for example cannot be called a "martial art". Sorry if I'm too rigid in my reading, I just got finished with a statistical methodology course this past quarter and I'm still thinking like that. Did you read my service-related post?
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 8:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >I think usage indicates that martial art was created to describe Asian imports, am I incorrect?

    Yes, the term was first noted in FRENCH (Artes de Martiale) centuries ago which was used to describe the various schools of fighting (staff, club, cane, sword, etc.)

    The term Martial Arts took a turn when pple like Don Dreager and others used it in their books on Asian Combat Arts (Other like R.W. Smith wanted to use the term COMBATIVES but MA stuck) From that pple started associating it with Asian Imports but that was never the intention.

    Now another problem is that when you look at CAPOERIA pple who don't know it full history would think like you put it:
    >It isn't clear how everything under Capoeira or Pencak Silat for example "pertains to combat/war"

    Under the Capoeria thread I noted there is capoeria to entertain and their is capoeria to fight. This goes with many arts today. The MAJORITY of the empty handed arts practiced today are SPORT derivaties, which is funny to see so many sites and thread pop up debating the merits of their SPORT. And like I said the majority of practioners today will probably NOT ever use their training in a real situation (funny how many take a school scuffle and turn it into a LIFE AND DEATH event)

    >Sorry if I'm too rigid in my reading

    Don't be. You at least show intellegence, which will probably get you into trouble around here! :)

    Would write more but have press my uniform and head into work.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!




    Edited by - Asia on December 10 2002 18:03:38
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 3:06pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oops! I knew I shoulda studied French! I prefer the more classical idea of the art-science distinction because I think it better captures the approach of those who are concerned only with practicality versus those who don't expose their skills to testing and just run a rearguard defense of their entire doctrine. I know a little about the history of capoeira and as far as I know capoeira to entertain is still referred to as a martial art, as are all other systems that don't concern themselves strictly with preparing themselves for combat, so obviously the definition's a little narrow.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  10. SamHarber is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2002 3:32pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've always thought that the term Martial Arts was a western construct, and its nice to know I was right for once. Oriental MAs were all about sticking pieces of metal in each other originally, so I always thought it odd that they'd try and codify it to be something its not.
    Personally I blame the new age movement, bunch of bloody tree huggers....
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
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