Achilles vs Heelhook

**Dochter** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 11:46am

One of my fellow bjj whitebelts who has done some shootfighting made a comment yesterday I'm not sold on. I wasn't able to ask my instructor as a number of us were on our way to our cars when it came up.

What the guy said was that achilles locks are not usually going to ever cause real damage, most of the time you don't have proper leverage. This is why, he said, you usually don't ever see anyone tap to one and you see people switch to heelhooks. Is this accurate?

I tap anytime someone grabs my foot because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but down the road this might be good info to have. Omega's opinion would be appreciated in particular.

Thanks.

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:04pm

Hell yeah they do damage! I didn't tap quick enough to one Osiris had on me at the last throwdown and my ankle made a horrible popping sound then was swollen for 2 days and sore for a month.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:07pm

Maybe its me but, how to do you one without involving they other ??
The lock on the ankle will put pressure on the achilles in most positions, no?
A heel hook still puts pressure on the achilles tendon, no?

**Dochter** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:13pm

Just to be clear we are all talking about an achilles where essentially you're pulling your forearm into the achilles tendon and the pulling is on the tendons and ligaments on the front of the foot and leg, right?

**Dochter** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:15pm

As opposed to a keel hook which twists the leg at the foot and messes with the ligaments of the knee:

**Dochter** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:16pm

Originally posted by ronin69
Maybe its me but, how to do you one without involving they other ??
The lock on the ankle will put pressure on the achilles in most positions, no?
A heel hook still puts pressure on the achilles tendon, no?

Exerting pressure in different directions.

Omega should be the one answering these though, certainly not me.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:30pm

Thanks big guy :)

**BigRod** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 1:48pm

The problems I typically see/have with applying the achilles is people not able to actually apply pressure to the achilles. In many instances they apply the pressure just slightly above the achilles, in which case the bone is bigger/stronger there and therefore no serious injury will occur, and why some people dont tap.

But when the lock is applied directly to the achilles/ankle...you'd better tap.

**Punisher** · Posted On: 5/26/2004 3:11pm

One of my fellow bjj whitebelts who has done some shootfighting made a comment yesterday I'm not sold on. I wasn't able to ask my instructor as a number of us were on our way to our cars when it came up.

What the guy said was that achilles locks are not usually going to ever cause real damage, most of the time you don't have proper leverage. This is why, he said, you usually don't ever see anyone tap to one and you see people switch to heelhooks. Is this accurate?

I'll defer to Omega on this one too, but I've heard Bas Ruten say basically the same thing during Pride contests.

In fact in his Big Book of Combat Volume 2, Chapter 3, pg 225 he says:

If somebody gets me in training in a simple Achilles pull, and I am in a period just before a fight, I tap. Why go into a fight injured? But hear me when I say that on that same Achilles pull, I will never tap during a fight. This is a move that just hurts; it doesn't break anything and is easy to defend. I'm talking about the straight Achilles pull here, not when he brings your leg over to the other side.