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Thread: Jits joints

  1. #21
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I protect my joints/tendons/ligaments from BJJ by

    - eating a lot, particularly of animal protein and fats
    - getting plenty of high-quality sleep
    - not playing spider guard, lasso guard, or other strategies like spamming collar chokes that rely on a death grip on the gi
    - following a low-volume strength and conditioning program alongside grappling
    - being diligent with a daily yoga or morning warm-up practice.

    Through N=1 experimentation I've found that each of these greatly improved finger, wrist, shoulder, hip, back, ankle, neck, and knee soreness. I can't speak to magic pills or salves (though I do suspect that supplementing vitamin D has helped through the winter), but I can say that the meat and potatoes of body maintenance as I've described seem to have demonstrable results for myself and my friends.

    Hahaha stfu, no that's not what you did.
    Please don't use words like that out of context.
    You have a personal anecdote, not an n=1 experiment.
    Unless you are suggesting you blinded yourself?
    Um yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by PDA View Post
    I started taking vitamin B12 a number of years ago for something unrelated and it eradicated my finger pain and stiffness.
    Not sure if there is any science behind it but now I take it daily with three different supplements (BCAA/Berrocca/A-Z) and I have never had it come back.

    Same here, you really have no clue if it had an effect or not.
    That's just how it is, regression to the mean, placebo and all...


    OP needs to listen to DCS and BKR.


    Don't do this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Martialmallow View Post
    Hey at least while you figure out how to avoid the joint pain you've been getting - try using P.R.I.C.E in the meantime.
    P - Protection (use a brace or finger tape or something like that)
    R - Rest (take it if you need it)
    I - Ice (Ice for 15/20 mins after training)
    C - Compression (Compress sore joints after icing)
    E - Elevation (this can help, I don't use it all the time tho).
    I've been using this for sore joints in Jiu Jitsu and its helped a lot.



    Step one is to eliminate/minimize pain.
    That simply won't happen by taking supplements and ice has some drawbacks.
    You just need to de-load and rest first.

    Step two is regain mobility, which for your hands should not be a problem.

    Step three is train the appropriate strength.
    That takes time.
    Taping your hands helps.

    So basically, train smarter.
    There are no shortcuts.

  2. #22
    DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    OP needs to listen to DCS and BKR.
    This is only an an anecdote but I think is worth sharing.

    The other day I was rolling with a younger and bigger, like almost everybody at my gym, white belt. I cross collar (kata juji jime) choked him from closed guard... don't know for sure but at least 4 times in a couple min without breaking a sweat. After the roll he said to me 'dude, you have vice grips, I was completely unable to posture up and defend ...'

    The young padawan didn't noticed in his spazzy foolishness that my better positioning, timing, connection, leverage, cunningness and guile working together was the cause of his suffering, not my grips.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    This is only an an anecdote but I think is worth sharing.

    The other day I was rolling with a younger and bigger, like almost everybody at my gym, white belt. I cross collar (kata juji jime) choked him from closed guard... don't know for sure but at least 4 times in a couple min without breaking a sweat. After the roll he said to me 'dude, you have vice grips, I was completely unable to posture up and defend ...'

    The young padawan didn't noticed in his spazzy foolishness that my better positioning, timing, connection, leverage, cunningness and guile working together was the cause of his suffering, not my grips.
    I had similar experiences. I do have a pretty strong grip for a guy my size who doesn't do manual labor.

    But due to joint pain of course it's hard to apply all of that Force.

    The whole collar choke thing is about positioning and timing and angle. I've been helping one of our newer blue belts with that sort of stuff he gets in good position but doesn't know how to finish the cross collar chokes. It also has a lot to do with controlling uke body so they can't escape and essentially hanging them on their own body weight.

    I'm laying on the couch right now recovering from training just three days this week. Funny thing is you don't last night where I was taking Falls for two different people and also working on grip and throw sequences myself makes me a hell of a lot store then rolling around on the ground even with Spazzy large white Belts.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Step one is to eliminate/minimize pain.
    That simply won't happen by taking supplements and ice has some drawbacks.
    You just need to de-load and rest first.

    Step two is regain mobility, which for your hands should not be a problem.

    Step three is train the appropriate strength.
    That takes time.
    Taping your hands helps.

    So basically, train smarter.
    There are no shortcuts.
    I've been using PRICE for pain after BJJ, is there something better I should use? What drawbacks does applying ice have? :)

  5. #25
    Nutcracker, sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialmallow View Post
    I've been using PRICE for pain after BJJ, is there something better I should use? What drawbacks does applying ice have? :)
    Ice acts as a vasoconstrictor, so while it can help with pain management, it doesn't really help with the healing part. If you don't heal, the pain will remain. You need bloodflow to heal. CPF will surely be along to correct me, if I'm wrong.

  6. #26
    Christmas Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Ice acts as a vasoconstrictor, so while it can help with pain management, it doesn't really help with the healing part. If you don't heal, the pain will remain. You need bloodflow to heal. CPF will surely be along to correct me, if I'm wrong.
    I am no Chen but that is what I have been taught.
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Ice acts as a vasoconstrictor, so while it can help with pain management, it doesn't really help with the healing part. If you don't heal, the pain will remain. You need bloodflow to heal. CPF will surely be along to correct me, if I'm wrong.
    I have too heard that, especially concerning cold immersion after working out - but is there a difference between vasoconstriction of damaged muscle and just sore/overworked ligaments? Is all pain indicitive of a need to heal? Also, I ice for about 20 mins after each BJJ session cause my elbow is a bit screwed, do you think 20 minutes of cold would significantly slow down the healing process? I thought vasoconstriction only lasted for a short while - shouldnt the healing start shortly after the cold?
    Also isn't the pain related to inflammation? wouldn't lessening the inflamation remove pain (and slow healing) but remove pain? I don't think the actual process of healing is the painful bit, isnt it the inflammation in muscle?
    Last edited by Martialmallow; 11/11/2017 1:30am at .

  8. #28
    Nutcracker, sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialmallow View Post
    I have too heard that, especially concerning cold immersion after working out - but is there a difference between vasoconstriction of damaged muscle and just sore/overworked ligaments? Is all pain indicitive of a need to heal? Also, I ice for about 20 mins after each BJJ session cause my elbow is a bit screwed, do you think 20 minutes of cold would significantly slow down the healing process? I thought vasoconstriction only lasted for a short while - shouldnt the healing start shortly after the cold?
    Also isn't the pain related to inflammation? wouldn't lessening the inflamation remove pain (and slow healing) but remove pain? I don't think the actual process of healing is the painful bit, isnt it the inflammation in muscle?
    That's a whole lot of questions that I am definitely not qualified to answer. But, it's late, I'm bored and a bit tipsy, so... just remember to consult your doctor before taking my advice.

    In my probably-wrong opinion, icing a recurrent injury after a normal workout is counterproductive. It is important to regulate your core body temp down (because heat stress/heat stroke), but it sounds like you're attempting to treat a specific injury, and incorrectly. Nietzsche wasn't talking about physical trauma when he said "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Modern medicine will tell you to heal, via rest, and recover, via physical therapy. Icing only really treats the symptom, often at the expense of treating the cause.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Hahaha stfu, no that's not what you did.
    Please don't use words like that out of context.
    You have a personal anecdote, not an n=1 experiment.
    Unless you are suggesting you blinded yourself?
    Um yeah...
    jesus christ piss off and get over yourself
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

  10. #30
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialmallow View Post
    I have too heard that, especially concerning cold immersion after working out - but is there a difference between vasoconstriction of damaged muscle and just sore/overworked ligaments?
    Ligaments have very poor bloodflow to begin with compared to muscle, so it is reasonable to assume the negative effects would be more pronounced with ligamentous tissue, with regards to tissue healing.




    Is all pain indicitive of a need to heal?
    No.


    Also, I ice for about 20 mins after each BJJ session cause my elbow is a bit screwed, do you think 20 minutes of cold would significantly slow down the healing process? I thought vasoconstriction only lasted for a short while - shouldnt the healing start shortly after the cold?

    Well, a delay is a delay, isn't it?



    Also isn't the pain related to inflammation? wouldn't lessening the inflamation remove pain (and slow healing) but remove pain? I don't think the actual process of healing is the painful bit, isnt it the inflammation in muscle?
    Inflammation is part of the healing process, ergo reducing inflammation *can slow healing.
    Pain is an "output" from the brain and it is not a direct indicator of what is going on in the tissue.


    *The adage "the dose makes the poison" applies here.
    Dr Gabe Mirkin who came up with the RICE protocol, which PRICE is based on, has recanted and is no longer suggesting routine icing.

    When I wrote my best-selling Sportsmedicine Book in 1978, I coined the term RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation) for the treatment of athletic injuries (Little Brown and Co., page 94). Ice has been a standard treatment for injuries and sore muscles because it helps to relieve pain caused by injured tissue. Coaches have used my "RICE" guideline for decades, but now it appears that both Ice and complete Rest may delay healing, instead of helping.
    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/why-...-recovery.html


    Gary Reinl's book is pretty convincing and well sourced, if a bit clumsily written.

    https://www.amazon.com/ICED-Illusion.../dp/0989831914

    After forty years of widespread use, there is no peer-reviewed, indisputable published evidence (indexed on PubMed) that the use of ice improves the recovery process.
    Icing does not reduce swelling. In fact, getting "iced" often increases the amount of fluid in the damaged area by creating a backflow from the lymphatic vessels.
    Delaying the healing process is always the result of icing regardless of the intent.
    As ice made its way to therapy centers, the word quickly got out. And, since ice is easy to use, inexpensive, readily available, and, unlike most every other injury response method, can be administered by anyone--as no special training or certification is needed--it was able to rapidly spread.
    The MEAT protocol has been gaining steam, but I find the M and E redundant.

    I prefer:
    reduce/eliminate pain
    restore full movement
    regain/train relevant strength
    return to full activity

    Sorry, no acronym...

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