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  1. #101
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You really want to get into all the various loopholes that essentially allow people on the prohibited list to own firearms?
    Regarding the licensing for driving, it is highly dependent upon the State.
    Please do, I always find it interesting. I'd like to see if you do what the average gun novice does, false equivalence, or if you actually can make a rational and sound argument.


    No amount of regulation is going to stop someone who is determined to be involved in criminal activity from committing criminal offenses. I currently live in a nation that does not allow civilians to own rifles. If I wanted I could get my hands on a fully automatic M-4 in just a couple of days(let's see if Shabak pays me a visit for writing this). My law abiding nature is the reason that I have not collected a small armory of full-auto weapons.
    However, does that mean that proper training and demonstration of competence via written and performance tests wouldn't go to some degree to reduce the 70000+ annual injuries and 30000+ annual deaths from firearms?
    If you required proof of purchase/ownership of a gun safe in order to purchase a firearm, and criminalized negligence in storage would that save some lives?

    I'm not part of the gun ban crowd. I'm part of the "common sense" legislation crowd. Frankly if I had my way, every person who wanted a firearm would have to be licensed with training that included force on force(i.e. simunitions) so that they would be better suited to help protect their fellow citizens, and would be required refresher courses at reasonable intervals. Gun safes would be required and negligent storage would be criminalized.

    It wouldn't solve all the problems but it would be several steps in the right direction.
    See, the problem with this portion is you are arguing gun deaths, gun accidents and other gun issues and not addressing Mass shootings. All the training in the world and regulations would have resulted in 500 deaths and 59 injuries IMO, in Las Vegas.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Why the hell would anyone do that, half the thread is bullshit about cars and state vs. Supreme Court cases and 1bad trying to troll.

    Even I skip posts now and then.
    Thanks for your contribution, up to now, and in the future.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  3. #103
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post

    See, the problem with this portion is you are arguing gun deaths, gun accidents and other gun issues and not addressing Mass shootings. All the training in the world and regulations would have resulted in 500 deaths and 59 injuries IMO, in Las Vegas.
    Now that's an interesting rabbit hole. How many deaths were preventable in each case, given what we know? Vegas threat response was a police SWAT team, and Texas was one Jesus loving, churchgoing rifleman engaging and running the threat down on the road.

    The solution in both cases, even though the gunmen finally killed themselves, was people fighting back with guns. It was a miracle that somebody was near the church and armed with an AR. Or not, because Texas.

    All you need to do is swap heroes and more people die. A single man with a rifle could never have stopped Paddock who had an arsenal and a huge selection of targets, nor could an entire SWAT team have done anything to stop Kelley's spree, because it was so focused and quick.

    I'm really intrigued by the (sexist) idea of a "good guy with a gun" always being within shot's distance from a potential threat.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Good question. It's a holdover from my Yeshiva(Rabbinic Academy) days. Students are encouraged to be sharp in their debate. My wife once came to visit me at one when we were first married... She heard the shouting and the flying insults and asked me with some concern if a fight was going on inside. Her having only attended Western style University had no concept for friendly discourse being that way. Generally speaking one speaks with defferance to the aged and one's superiors, and kind patience to those who one's lessers. If I'm insulting you, it typically means that on some level I consider you an equal.
    It's a cultural thing, and after 10+ years in Israeli society, I sometimes forget that the polite people from the US take it differently.
    Yes, it is a cultural thing. Nope, it isn't a US thing at all. Sorry, too broad of a Brush.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Why the hell would anyone do that, half the thread is bullshit about cars and state vs. Supreme Court cases and 1bad trying to troll.

    Even I skip posts now and then.
    Slacker

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Now that's an interesting rabbit hole.
    Nope, no hole. Better training makes a person more accurate the end. Better training and he would have learned Bumpfire is for fun not accuracy or mass murder.This story was about another terrible Mass Shooting and as usual, "common sense" regulations, gun ownership, gun injuries, gun deaths, suicide and multiple scenarios are created to prove points. Then others argue the Constitution, right to bear arms, gun rights and how the gun system was used correctly. Basically, I am pointing out we have reached an impasse because people talk past each other. Like I said, I want to see if his argument is different or not.
    How many deaths were preventable in each case, given what we know? Vegas threat response was a police SWAT team, and Texas was one Jesus loving, churchgoing rifleman engaging and running the threat down on the road.

    The solution in both cases, even though the gunmen finally killed themselves, was people fighting back with guns. It was a miracle that somebody was near the church and armed with an AR. Or not, because Texas.

    All you need to do is swap heroes and more people die. A single man with a rifle could never have stopped Paddock who had an arsenal and a huge selection of targets, nor could an entire SWAT team have done anything to stop Kelley's spree, because it was so focused and quick.

    I'm really intrigued by the (sexist) idea of a "good guy with a gun" always being within shot's distance from a potential threat.
    This is the real rabbit hole.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Slacker
    I've been laid up with bronchitis for several days. Couldn't you tell? I've been bingewatching to catch up with "The Walking Dead". I stopped watching after the infamous Episode 509 ("What Happened and What's Going On")
    Spoiler:
    Tyreese's death


    Not completely off topic, there are few shows that better illustrate the pros/cons of guns and gun control. I always cringe when they're asked to give up their guns on the show, because I know it's always, always, always a bad idea, and that humans they meet on the road are way more dangerous than zombie hordes..
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 11/06/2017 8:48pm at .

  8. #108
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Slacker
    Considering the guy complaining is one of the biggest offenders
    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #109
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Please do, I always find it interesting. I'd like to see if you do what the average gun novice does, false equivalence, or if you actually can make a rational and sound argument.
    See, the problem with this portion is you are arguing gun deaths, gun accidents and other gun issues and not addressing Mass shootings. All the training in the world and regulations would have resulted in 500 deaths and 59 injuries IMO, in Las Vegas.
    In regards to mass shootings, what you have is a mental health problem that is being disguised as a gun problem, because no one wants to ask what is causing an alarming rate of people to go off the rails and act this way in the world's most prosperous nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Nope, no hole. Better training makes a person more accurate the end. Better training and he would have learned Bumpfire is for fun not accuracy or mass murder.This story was about another terrible Mass Shooting and as usual, "common sense" regulations, gun ownership, gun injuries, gun deaths, suicide and multiple scenarios are created to prove points. Then others argue the Constitution, right to bear arms, gun rights and how the gun system was used correctly. Basically, I am pointing out we have reached an impasse because people talk past each other. Like I said, I want to see if his argument is different or not.
    This is the real rabbit hole.
    See and I would argue that the (clearly in my mind)unrelated preventable deaths get pulled into the discussion and are used to put the focus on firearms because "common sense" stuff hasn't been done to address those other issues.

    More to the point and topic at hand, people see 26 who are dead and shouldn't be as they did nothing more than exercise their First Amendment rights, and they want something to blame. So some will blame guns, which is silly because it is only the means, just as easily could have been a truck, or worse a truck full of explosives.
    Some will blame mental illness(here's looking at you Mr. President), but while a large portion(and I would argue all) mass shooters are mentally ill, the vast majority of people suffering mental illness are non-violent and so that really isn't a good predictor either.
    Here are some articles on predictors... But you still have the issue of keeping guns out of the hands of the criminal:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/
    http://psychiatryonline.org.psychiat....9781615371099
    https://everytownresearch.org/report...ings-analysis/
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

  10. #110
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    no one wants to ask what is causing an alarming rate of people to go off the rails and act this way in the world's most prosperous nation.
    The internet is a significant factor. When people use the term "plug in", they ain't kiddin. It's pretty easy to line up the last 10 mass shootings or so and find a clear internet-relate element. In some cases it's domestic cyberbullying, in others its religious or sectarian radicalization. Sometimes as in the case of Lanza, ritual virtualized murder. Humans can simulate their massacres now, using a PS4.

    There's some German philosophy about staring into abysses and killing God and so forth, but you don't see the self-described "uberman" until he pulls up to a defenseless church ready to rock out with his pencil dick in tactical fatigues and AR-15.

    Oh did I say defenseless? No...it turns out this ubermensch was nearby with a long rifle. How come nobody is talking about the positives? Have I been asleep too long?

    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 11/07/2017 12:23am at .

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