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  1. #11
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    Wouldn't a vacuum bubble over the head and neck work better? All those veins in your head and face. Think a water cooled vacuum helmet. I bet it would pull the blackheads out your face too.
    Would probably speed up cooling, all the blood flow to the head and all. Though I could see breathing being an issue.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    Wouldn't a vacuum bubble over the head and neck work better? All those veins in your head and face. Think a water cooled vacuum helmet. I bet it would pull the blackheads out your face too.
    Yeah, they already tried that. Results were....mixed, to say the least: http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/...esize=1100x740

  3. #13
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Well, lots of athletes are using cooling technology these days. Everything from ice baths right after workouts to those cool leg and arm bubbles that compress and cool the limbs to push out lactic acid. I don't think it's a bad idea. I don't think it's revolutionary either. But a different platform to deliver similar types of treatment, I'm all for that. More stuff on the market will increase technology and drive down prices which will make it more accessible to consumers. Right now the only people using that stuff is facilities with lots of money or people with access to a deep tub and lots of ice.

    Good stuff for recovery but I wouldn't say on par with steroids. Good click bait though.
    Combatives training log.

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  4. #14
    Christmas Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Would probably speed up cooling, all the blood flow to the head and all. Though I could see breathing being an issue.
    Pashaw!

    It works the cardio better too!
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  5. #15
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Well, lots of athletes are using cooling technology these days. Everything from ice baths right after workouts to those cool leg and arm bubbles that compress and cool the limbs to push out lactic acid. I don't think it's a bad idea. I don't think it's revolutionary either. But a different platform to deliver similar types of treatment, I'm all for that. More stuff on the market will increase technology and drive down prices which will make it more accessible to consumers. Right now the only people using that stuff is facilities with lots of money or people with access to a deep tub and lots of ice.

    Good stuff for recovery but I wouldn't say on par with steroids. Good click bait though.

    "Lactic acid" (lactate) is part of normal metabolism and doesn't need to be flushed out.
    It returns to homeostasis shortly after exercise and is part of the Cori cycle.
    It probably has nothing to do with DOMS either, being that it's fuel.


    When oxygen supply is insufficient, typically during intense muscular activity, energy must be released through anaerobic metabolism. Lactic acid fermentation converts pyruvate to lactate by lactate dehydrogenase. Most importantly, fermentation regenerates NAD+, maintaining the NAD+ concentration so that additional glycolysis reactions can occur. The fermentation step oxidizes the NADH produced by glycolysis back to NAD+, transferring two electrons from NADH to reduce pyruvate into lactate. Refer to the main articles on glycolysis and fermentation for the details.

    Instead of accumulating inside the muscle cells, lactate produced by anaerobic fermentation is taken up by the liver. This initiates the other half of the Cori cycle. In the liver, gluconeogenesis occurs. From an intuitive perspective, gluconeogenesis reverses both glycolysis and fermentation by converting lactate first into pyruvate, and finally back to glucose. The glucose is then supplied to the muscles through the bloodstream; it is ready to be fed into further glycolysis reactions. If muscle activity has stopped, the glucose is used to replenish the supplies of glycogen through glycogenesis.[3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cori_cycle




    If you want to annoy a physiologist, say something along the lines of "Boy, I can really feel the lactic acid in my legs from yesterday's workout." This is one of those exercise myths that refuses to die, despite decades of research showing that lactic acid (or, more correctly, lactate) is more of a help than a hindrance during exercise.
    https://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-s...e-lactate-myth

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Dammit... I fell for bullshit.
    Well, at least they got Stanford University too, that makes me feel a bit better about it.
    It's just a press release.
    Being that they've been saying the same garbage for two decades, I'd assume it has more to do with tenure than anything else.



    My guess with swimmers is that the water wouldn't be the right temperature or something.
    Ockham came to me in a dream, he said the whole premise is bullshit.

  7. #17
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    "Lactic acid" (lactate) is part of normal metabolism and doesn't need to be flushed out.
    It returns to homeostasis shortly after exercise and is part of the Cori cycle.
    It probably has nothing to do with DOMS either, being that it's fuel.




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cori_cycle





    https://www.runnersworld.com/sweat-s...e-lactate-myth
    Sounds good to me. You can find plenty of people saying the opposite. I'm not a physiologist so, can't comment on that side of it. I'm just saying what I've read and seen. Their are plenty of people doing ice baths and stuff for recovery. Some say it helps and some say it doesn't. What I do know is that when you are an athlete, you will try anything you can to get an edge. And if that edge is mental, then go for it because sometimes that can be enough to get you a win. Sometimes trying new stuff is enough to pump some extra energy into your workout just because it is different.

    Either way, I say try it and see if you like it or not. But that's just me.

    https://www.verywell.com/after-exerc...covery-3120571

    The ice bath was believed to:
    1. Constrict blood vessels and flush waste products, like lactic acid, out of the affected tissues
    2. Decrease metabolic activity and slow down physiological processes
    3. Reduce swelling and tissue breakdown

    Then, with rewarming, the increased blood flow was believed to speed up circulation, and in turn, improve the healing process.



    Although there is no current protocol regarding the ideal time and temperature for cold immersion routines, most athletes or trainers who use them recommend a water temperature between 12 to 15 degrees Celsius and immersion times of 5 to 10 and sometimes up to 20 minutes.

    So, while that’s the theory behind the cold water immersion for exercise recovery, conclusive research about the pros, cons and ideal time and temperatures is still a ways off.
    But there is also this:

    According to the researchers, "Ice-water immersion offers no benefit for pain, swelling, isometric strength and function, and in fact may make more athletes sore the next day."
    And finally this:

    While, it's clear that more research is needed before a firm conclusion can be reached, so far the information that is available indicates the following:
    Active recovery is generally still accepted as the gold standard, and arguably, the best way to recovery after hard exercise.
    Cold water immersion after a single hard workout offers some temporary pain relief and may, in fact, help recovery—at least an athlete's perceived experience of a faster recovery.
    Alternating cold water and warm water baths (contract water therapy), may help athletes feel better and offer temporary pain relief.
    Ice baths are not necessary; cold water baths (24 degrees Celsius) are as good and perhaps better, than ice baths.
    Passive recovery (complete rest) is not an effective way to recover.
    Hot baths after hard exercise may hinder exercise recovery.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

  8. #18
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Dammit... I fell for bullshit.
    Well, at least they got Stanford University too, that makes me feel a bit better about it.
    My guess with swimmers is that the water wouldn't be the right temperature or something.
    If you read the entire article Chen posted, there's the hype and also 15+ years of serious research behind this. This is real work being done in Stanford's labs and on their football field, along with the UofM Hurricanes. At least one NFL team has tested or used this technology (49ers).

    https://gizmodo.com/5939295/stanford...s-for-athletes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_...(physiologist)

    The press release can be explained by the simple fact that Stanford has invested in the technology, and serves both its own interests and that of the research by trawling for new investors.

    Active cooling of the wrists, hands, face etc is a sure thing, no doubt. This technology seems to be mildly overthought (there's a mention about cooling pads being potentially just as effective), but that's why we have universities, to overthink things and write about it.

    The overall concept though is not groundbreaking at all, and chances are you can pull this cooling trick off in many different ways.

  9. #19
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Here's the actual research paper that involves their technology. It's probably worth staying clear of news articles with this sort of thing (science news outside of journals tends to be sensationalized), and stick to what this study actually suggests, because it's their best evidence (you'll see the 620/180 pullup ratio and 144% improvement in many articles, it ties back to this study below, which was released in tune with the 2012 press release to create buzz for the commercial endeavor).

    Biology is not my thing but there are some clear limitations in this study, not the least of which is the really, really small n's.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22076097

    Work volume and strength training responses to resistive exercise improve with periodic heat extraction from the palm.
    Grahn DA1, Cao VH, Nguyen CM, Liu MT, Heller HC.
    Author information
    Abstract

    Body core cooling via the palm of a hand increases work volume during resistive exercise. We asked: (a) "Is there a correlation between elevated core temperatures and fatigue onset during resistive exercise?" and (b) "Does palm cooling between sets of resistive exercise affect strength and work volume training responses?" Core temperature was manipulated by 30-45 minutes of fixed load and duration treadmill exercise in the heat with or without palm cooling. Work volume was then assessed by 4 sets of fixed load bench press exercises. Core temperatures were reduced and work volumes increased after palm cooling (Control: Tes = 39.0 ± 0.1° C, 36 ± 7 reps vs. Cooling: Tes = 38.4 ± 0.2° C, 42 ± 7 reps, mean ± SD, n = 8, p < 0.001). In separate experiments, the impact of palm cooling on work volume and strength training responses were assessed. The participants completed biweekly bench press or pull-up exercises for multiple successive weeks. Palm cooling was applied for 3 minutes between sets of exercise. Over 3 weeks of bench press training, palm cooling increased work volume by 40% (vs. 13% with no treatment; n = 8, p < 0.05). Over 6 weeks of pull-up training, palm cooling increased work volume by 144% in pull-up experienced subjects (vs. 5% over 2 weeks with no treatment; n = 7, p < 0.001) and by 80% in pull-up naïve subjects (vs. 20% with no treatment; n = 11, p < 0.01). Strength (1 repetition maximum) increased 22% over 10 weeks of pyramid bench press training (4 weeks with no treatment followed by 6 weeks with palm cooling; n = 10, p < 0.001). These results verify previous observations about the effects of palm cooling on work volume, demonstrate a link between core temperature and fatigue onset during resistive exercise, and suggest a novel means for improving strength and work volume training responses.

    PMID:
    22076097
    DOI:
    10.1519/JSC.0b013e31823f8c1a

    [Indexed for MEDLINE]
    Last edited by Ice Hole; 11/03/2017 3:16pm at .

  10. #20
    ChenPengFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Sounds good to me. You can find plenty of people saying the opposite. I'm not a physiologist so, can't comment on that side of it. I'm just saying what I've read and seen. Their are plenty of people doing ice baths and stuff for recovery. Some say it helps and some say it doesn't. What I do know is that when you are an athlete, you will try anything you can to get an edge. And if that edge is mental, then go for it because sometimes that can be enough to get you a win. Sometimes trying new stuff is enough to pump some extra energy into your workout just because it is different.

    Either way, I say try it and see if you like it or not. But that's just me.

    https://www.verywell.com/after-exerc...covery-3120571



    But there is also this:



    And finally this:


    It's simply not metabolic waste, period
    You'll find lots of bullshit online, but the Cori cycle is well established and there is no debate about it.
    Lactate levels are back to normal shortly after exercise anyhow.

    Ice doesn't increase circulation either.
    It *might increase your heartrate but vasoconstriction naturally *impedes bloodflow.

    It's also fallen out of favor quote a bit by those in the know, including the guy who invented "RICE."
    It helps with pain somewhat but that's about it.

    When I wrote my best-selling Sportsmedicine Book in 1978, I coined the term RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation) for the treatment of athletic injuries (Little Brown and Co., page 94). Ice has been a standard treatment for injuries and sore muscles because it helps to relieve pain caused by injured tissue. Coaches have used my "RICE" guideline for decades, but now it appears that both Ice and complete Rest may delay healing, instead of helping.
    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/why-...-recovery.html

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