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  1. #11
    Christmas Spirit's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
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    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  2. #12
    gregaquaman's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know a kid who has a title belt and thiry fights experience.

    https://m.whitsundaytimes.com.au/new...a-row/2473206/

    So lets pretend he has a black belt. What exactly would be the issue?
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  3. #13
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    I misread the title as "We all agree black kids are bad, right?" and am now sorely disappointed.

    The problem with kids' black belts is not that it's impossible for an adolescent to be able to fight at the level of an adult, it's that the orgs that regularly award black belts to kids are populated with adult black belts that can't fight at the level of an adult.
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  4. #14

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by vanguard103 View Post
    Also there's this guy from Mcdojo FAQ:



    QUESTION: If a child can pass the same requirements as an adult for black belt, then what is so wrong with kids having black belts?
    I get this question all the time. Quite simply, if a child can pass the same requirements to get an adult black belt, then the requirements are set too low. The school just lowered the standards to let ANYONE get a black belt. Kids shouldn't be able to get a full fledged adult black belt. Black Belts should be something only the best of the best can get, and there test to get it should show levels of martial arts, athleticism, and skill above the general population. Memorizing forms, one-steps, and self-defense techniques aren't it. Now, if your 8 year old is willing to go full contact sparring with a full sized adult, and will win, then sure, he should have a black belt. But can kids do that? No. If you can find someone under 14 who can and is willing to step up and prove himself, then fine, by all means. But 99.9999% of kid black belts CAN'T EVEN DEFEAT SOMEONE UNSKILLED IN THEIR OWN AGE, let alone a full grown adult attacking them.
    Unfortunately you're throwing around some statistics that you're basically pulling out your ass. I frankly allow kids to test for blackbelts but I let them know it's a Junior blackbelt. I let them test for an adult blackbelt at the age of 16. My justification is if they allowed to drive a vehicle at that age then they should be treated as an adult.

    You are also being very general, which was already pointed out, what type of martial arts are you talking about, what are the criteria. You want them to be able to defend themselves against their peers? Hell I don't know too many adults that can do that with their "adult" blackbelts.


    Huge can of worms here. What is your experience that you should come to this conclusion or do you think that a blackbelt is some paragon of achievement?

  5. #15
    NeilG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Judo 18 minimum.
    14 in the US and Canada, and probably in Japan although I can't say for sure.

    In kendo, shodan is decidedly a kids' grade, you are eligible at 13. In fact, if you are a strong player odds are you will have gotten sandan by the time you leave high school. Yondan is where adult kendo is considered to start.

    In the west, people have inflated this mysterious "black belt" level all out of proportion. To the lay person, it's some kind of mystical level of skill. To some martial artists, it's some kind of credibility test for a school: if black belt doesn't mean you are a certified bad-ass, if you didn't have to go through a 4 hour torture test to get it, then it isn't a "real" black belt.

    It's just a rank, like any other. It means different things in different arts. It means different things in the same art but different organizations. This is just fine, it is only useful within an organization. As long as everyone understands what it means, why is it a problem? Everyone in kendo knows shodan is 2 years of recreational practice. If you think you are some kind of master swordsman upon getting a kendo shodan, well the "welcome to shodan" beatdown you typically get from your sensei should abuse you of that notion.

  6. #16
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some of the best fighters I have ever met or fought had no belt in anything. That didn't mean that they didn't train long, it just meant that they didn't train in arts that awarded belts. Then again, I've met black belts that were pure bad assess. I have also met black belts that didn't know the basic defense against a choke. But that isn't the art they were training in.

    Your question and premise is mildly ridiculous. Think of your black belt as a high school diploma. Keep that in mind and all of the different people you have met with high school diplomas. Are they are the same? Are they all equally smart or skilled in the same areas? Did all of them stop their education at that level? Did everyone achieve that level?
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  7. #17
    NeilG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Your question and premise is mildly ridiculous. Think of your black belt as a high school diploma.
    A high school diploma should represent a minimum competency. Just because someone is better than high school doesn't mean that someone who barely passed doesn't have a legit high school diploma.

    Having said that, I don't like the school analogy. A TKD black belt and a BJJ black belt are not anywhere close enough to be analogous to the same general education level, and that is just fine.

  8. #18
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    14 in the US and Canada, and probably in Japan although I can't say for sure.

    In kendo, shodan is decidedly a kids' grade, you are eligible at 13. In fact, if you are a strong player odds are you will have gotten sandan by the time you leave high school. Yondan is where adult kendo is considered to start.

    In the west, people have inflated this mysterious "black belt" level all out of proportion. To the lay person, it's some kind of mystical level of skill. To some martial artists, it's some kind of credibility test for a school: if black belt doesn't mean you are a certified bad-ass, if you didn't have to go through a 4 hour torture test to get it, then it isn't a "real" black belt.

    It's just a rank, like any other. It means different things in different arts. It means different things in the same art but different organizations. This is just fine, it is only useful within an organization. As long as everyone understands what it means, why is it a problem? Everyone in kendo knows shodan is 2 years of recreational practice. If you think you are some kind of master swordsman upon getting a kendo shodan, well the "welcome to shodan" beatdown you typically get from your sensei should abuse you of that notion.
    Excellent post, especially 3rd paragraph.

    IME, though, a 14 year-old (Judo) black belt in the US or Canada would be pretty unusual, and would be doing well in higher level competition (Junior Nationals would count). For example, at Canadian Nationals, it's pretty rare to see shodan until u18, and it's more common in U21.

    To me, a black belt has to be able to beat other black belts (not all of them) in shiai (this is for healthy people, especially competitive teen-agers).

    I know in Japan, Judo shodan is pffffft...

    It's over-inflated in the USA (BJJ, I'm looking at you...)
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  9. #19
    Ded Moroz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Excellent post, especially 3rd paragraph.

    IME, though, a 14 year-old (Judo) black belt in the US or Canada would be pretty unusual, and would be doing well in higher level competition (Junior Nationals would count). For example, at Canadian Nationals, it's pretty rare to see shodan until u18, and it's more common in U21.

    To me, a black belt has to be able to beat other black belts (not all of them) in shiai (this is for healthy people, especially competitive teen-agers).

    I know in Japan, Judo shodan is pffffft...

    It's over-inflated in the USA (BJJ, I'm looking at you...)
    When I was in Korea there were kids with black belts in Taekwondo, Judo, and Kendo everywhere. It seemed like a perfectly normal thing to get one when they were around middle school aged.

    Shodan level seemed to be a give me rank that you aged into just for sticking around. I got one in Judo after about a 12 months of training and there was no ceremony or circumstance surrounding it. I knew how to fall and do a couple of throws in randori which was good enough for them. My understanding was a 3rd Dan in Japan/Korea was about the same level of training as a Shodan in the U.S. judo wise.

  10. #20
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dempsey View Post
    When I was in Korea there were kids with black belts in Taekwondo, Judo, and Kendo everywhere. It seemed like a perfectly normal thing to get one when they were around middle school aged.

    Shodan level seemed to be a give me rank that you aged into just for sticking around. I got one in Judo after about a 12 months of training and there was no ceremony or circumstance surrounding it. I knew how to fall and do a couple of throws in randori which was good enough for them. My understanding was a 3rd Dan in Japan/Korea was about the same level of training as a Shodan in the U.S. judo wise.
    Yes, shodan is valued a lot higher in the USA than in Japan. Korea, I don't know.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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